EV general discussion

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Good lord! Surely not!

Some people have been saying that for about a decade or so.
The problem is we don't have binding emissions standards in Australia because the previous government.. that's not what they did.

As a result manufacturers have been sending their EV's to where they need to sell them to avoid paying fines. So they are trickling a few EV's in here. Supply and demand and all so why not make the prices really high? And that's what they are doing.

So most people haven't been able to afford a decent EV. The FBT exemption is a big help.

If you want to have a read... There has been some recent talk about binding emissions standards in Australia. The leading manufacturers here don't really have any EV's in they will fight hard against it.

CO₂ emission performance standards for cars and vans (https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/transport-emissions/road-transport-reducing-co2-emissions-vehicles/co2-emission-performance-standards-cars-and-vans_en)

[Tins]

The problem is we don't have binding emissions standards in Australia because the previous government.. that's not what they did.



There was no need for them to do so. There has been no local manufacture for around five years, and there is no prospect of that changing. With the size of the market being minuscule in global terms, if Australia formulated and imposed "binding emission standards" of our own, manufacturers, especially the Europeans and North Americans, simply wouldn't bother to build cars for here. Being RHD, we're lucky that South Africa, China and the UK form a major part of their market or we wouldn't get their cars at all.

[4bee]

Highway Mild Weather 320Km..... so from my place to Sydney requires 2 charging stops. Not my idea of " real world ". My D2 can do that trip with a splash and dash at Marulan. With the AC on, and the headlights ( always I drive mitt lights ).

Yeah me to, & as it has been proven by various Motoring Organizations to be much safer I don't know why vehicles are not mandatorily wired for lights on at Engine start. Volvos are & I think RAA Service Vehicles are.


Just sayin'.

[Homestar]

My ev is not one pedal driving. The Tesla largely is. Both have a brake pedal. I have to use mine to stop fully.

A EV electronic guru here has hacked his/hers to provide one pedal and higher braking setting to a MG. Not at all sure what that does to the warranty of course. He/She is confident it is not an issue!

Software hacks to our computer type Landrovers are not uncommon. Flash to ECU chips is a hack.

I suspect issues with hacks via AI will add a layer of complexity to both EV and ICE fairly soon.

Some may be very good. The issue might not be so simple of course. The Mistakes by the "BARD" cost shareholders 100 billion $USD (https://fortune.com/2023/02/08/google-bard-ai-mistake-ad-stock-price-market-cap/).

Quantum computing anyone [biggrin]

In this day and age I’d be more worried about the implications should that modified vehicle be in an accident and they find the braking system has been modified without Engineering or OEM approval - would be interesting to see what the courts make of things like this in the future as it will become commonplace and at some point someone will screw the pooch doing so…

[Captain_Rightfoot]

There was no need for them to do so. There has been no local manufacture for around five years, and there is no prospect of that changing. With the size of the market being minuscule in global terms, if Australia formulated and imposed "binding emission standards" of our own, manufacturers, especially the Europeans and North Americans, simply wouldn't bother to build cars for here. Being RHD, we're lucky that South Africa, China and the UK form a major part of their market or we wouldn't get their cars at all.

Well... there didn't seem like there was. But because there were none we were left behind on emissions of ICE and allocation of EV's.

So our current fleet doesn't have the best fuel saving technology so over all we use more fuel.

And because we didn't care about emissions all the EV's have been allocated elsewhere in the world. Manufacturers work in multiples of years. This will take some time to turn around.

It's going to take years to reverse this.

[Homestar]

And because we didn't care about emissions all the EV's have been allocated elsewhere in the world. Manufacturers work in multiples of years. This will take some time to turn around.

It's going to take years to reverse this.

You can still buy an EV if you want - they aren’t being allocated elsewhere because no one cares about emissions - it’s because no one here (almost no one) wants one or can make it work with their current needs. You seem to want to force the EV tech down peoples throats - this isn’t the way the market will be built, it will be because people want (and can afford) them - until both these items are addressed mass EV uptake will never happen and with Lithium pricing only heading one direction (along with interest rates) the great unwashed won’t be looking to any EV for their next vehicle purchase - that’s just economics 101. I won’t even go back to the issue of charging them all should we all of a sudden get a rush of insanity break out and everyone goes and buys one.

[4bee]

You can still buy an EV if you want - they aren’t being allocated elsewhere because no one cares about emissions - it’s because no one here (almost no one) wants one or can make it work with their current needs. You seem to want to force the EV tech down peoples throats - this isn’t the way the market will be built, it will be because people want (and can afford) them - until both these items are addressed mass EV uptake will never happen and with Lithium pricing only heading one direction (along with interest rates) the great unwashed won’t be looking to any EV for their next vehicle purchase - that’s just economics 101. I won’t even go back to the issue of charging them all should we all of a sudden get a rush of insanity break out and everyone goes and buys one.

The industry will need to satisfy the potential purchasers that Lithium Batts are safe as well. Still a huge unknown or it will be a case of

Time 0200 "Darls did you remember to switch the Carport floodlights off?" You did!? Bugger, then it looks like the Toymota has had the dick."

[Narangga]

Nice. They are a neat car. Underrated IMHO. The facelift is a good upgrade too.

Yes that's what I felt too. Similar price to the Model 3, and also specs but what tipped the final box for us was a dealer or service agent in Darwin - something BYD, Telsa, Polestar and others do not have.

The MG was discounted as it will not fit 2 large suitcases and 4 adults for an airport run which is one criteria we had.

[Narangga]

One that will be delivered in June or July [bigwhistle]



Kia Niro EV S. Like the good Captain (Rightfoot) availing myself of the FBT exemption.

Also we upgraded rooftop solar and included a house battery last August. We both work so unused generation capacity that can charge an EV a day or two a week (which will mean the D3 gets a regular run).

[Narangga]

Yeah me to, & as it has been proven by various Motoring Organizations to be much safer I don't know why vehicles are not mandatorily wired for lights on at Engine start. Volvos are & I think RAA Service Vehicles are.


Just sayin'.

As opposed to Daytime Running Lights that most come standard with today?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

You can still buy an EV if you want - they aren’t being allocated elsewhere because no one cares about emissions - it’s because no one here (almost no one) wants one or can make it work with their current needs. You seem to want to force the EV tech down peoples throats - this isn’t the way the market will be built, it will be because people want (and can afford) them - until both these items are addressed mass EV uptake will never happen and with Lithium pricing only heading one direction (along with interest rates) the great unwashed won’t be looking to any EV for their next vehicle purchase - that’s just economics 101. I won’t even go back to the issue of charging them all should we all of a sudden get a rush of insanity break out and everyone goes and buys one.

I don't want to force anyone to do anything they don't want. I can see no way I can do what I want with a 4x4 EV. I can see that for many many people an EV is not an option at this stage.

It's just that Australia wants to reduce it's carbon we are at some point going to need to stop selling ICE cars and eventually even stop driving them. Gasp. Every new ICE car sold now has at the very least hopefully 10 years of useful life for which it needs fossil fuel. That's why we need more EV's asap.

And I swear it's not just me saying our lack of emissions standards is encouraging EV manufacturers to send all their EV's to markets with emissions standards.

Australian fuel efficiency standards vital for CO2 cuts, US research finds | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/australian-fuel-efficiency-standards-are-vital-for-co2-cuts-us-research-finds)

Soo much stuff on it. if you google "binding emissions standards EV" you'll get several pages of people calling for them. Right up to and including some car makers! Even VW!!!

“Our company was to first to warn that this country would become a ‘third world dumping ground’ for obsolete auto technology. This has become a rallying cry,” Mr Sansom claimed.
“… A federally mandated emissions target for our industry is non-negotiable if Australia’s supply of electric vehicles is to grow from a trickle to a flow and thereby start to meet ever growing demand,” he added.
VW Group Australia claims to hold '''leadership position''' in EV discussion | 7NEWS (https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/motoring/vw-group-australia-claims-to-hold-leadership-position-in-ev-discussion-c-7938089)

If you want to understand why the carmakers are sending cars to europe.. have a read. Massive penalties if they don't hit their CO2 fleet averages.

CO₂ emission performance standards for cars and vans (https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/transport-emissions/road-transport-reducing-co2-emissions-vehicles/co2-emission-performance-standards-cars-and-vans_en)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

You can still buy an EV if you want - they aren’t being allocated elsewhere because no one cares about emissions - it’s because no one here (almost no one) wants one or can make it work with their current needs. You seem to want to force the EV tech down peoples throats - this isn’t the way the market will be built, it will be because people want (and can afford) them - until both these items are addressed mass EV uptake will never happen and with Lithium pricing only heading one direction (along with interest rates) the great unwashed won’t be looking to any EV for their next vehicle purchase - that’s just economics 101. I won’t even go back to the issue of charging them all should we all of a sudden get a rush of insanity break out and everyone goes and buys one.
And.. even if you don't want an EV and that's fine.. there is far far more demand for EV's than we have supply for. Even at these crazy prices.

Number of electric vehicles on Australian roads soars as demand exceeds supply | Electric vehicles | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/07/number-of-electric-vehicles-on-australian-roads-soars-as-demand-exceeds-supply)

[4bee]

As opposed to Daytime Running Lights that most come standard with today?


Ah but not all on the road are, it depends on the Date of Manufacture but yes it was a good move for safety.

[NavyDiver]

I think only my 1980 GSX 750 needed Lights turned on. It's a very good idea yet still doesn't stop stupid or is that Stupid can stop me fast[thumbsupbig]


Back to EV topic. Apparently China has moved over Germany for export of cars behind Japan still. Not all EV of course.

2021 data is interesting with massive growth (https://www.worldstopexports.com/electric-cars-exports-by-country/)



Global EV Outlook 2022 (https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-product/global-ev-outlook-2022)(IEA)Has some amazing stats "Back in 2012, just 120 000 electric cars were sold worldwide. In 2021, more than that many are sold each week. Nearly 10% of global car sales were electric in 2021, four times the market share in 2019. This brought the total number of electric cars on the world’s roads to about 16.5 million, triple the amount in 2018. Global sales of electric cars have kept rising strongly in 2022, with 2 million sold in the first quarter, up 75% from the same period in 2021."

EU has 1 in 4 new cars as plug in EV.

UK is 16% ish.

Australia sales 2022

https://b2232832.smushcdn.com/2232832/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/2022-sales-roundup-vfacts-thedriven-ev-sales-total-2022-lr-v2.png?lossy=1&strip=0&webp=1

Still no Disco replacement in site[bawl]

[Tins]

It's going to take years to reverse this.

While I'd like to discuss just what it is you feel needs to be reversed, that's a sure path to CA.




And because we didn't care about emissions all the EV's have been allocated elsewhere in the world. Manufacturers work in multiples of years. This will take some time to turn around.

I'm really struggling to understand your argument. There are absolutely no disincentives to EV purchase here. In fact the scales are very much tipped in their favour. The artificial inflation of fuel prices is one way ( lot to say about that but the CA thing looms ). The various tax concessions are another. EV allocations? Once again, this is a RHD market and thus a drop in the ocean for the big players, but EV deliveries are doing better than others. NO, the biggest disincentive to EVs in this country is that they are totally unsuited to it. We cover distances in a year that most Europeans wouldn't in their lifetime, and EVs are hopeless at that. Our grid is in no way ready for an influx of what amounts to at least double the average household consumption eating EVs. And most Aussies that I have known do not want to have to plan every journey around a wall outlet. I know that I don't. I want to go where the whim takes me and not have to come home on a tow truck ( although my car of choice is capable of giving me that luxury ).

The thing that will take a long time is getting EVs accepted without some sort of evangelistic force.


So our current fleet doesn't have the best fuel saving technology so over all we use more fuel.

Australia always takes cars from the higher specced end of the market. The vast majority of cars sold here already meet the harshest regulations of the EU. Even the cheaper imports from closer to home meet US specs, and California is on about the same levels as the EU, so fuel consumption is world class. It's only been things like Landcruisers, which didn't sell in Europe, that have not been at that level, and that's changing right now.

AS for not caring about emissions, are you serious? Govt policies on emissions have decimated the power industry. Victoria in particular is actively campaigning to get gas cooking out of the household, while at the same time having massive gas reserves they are happy to sell os. Wind turbines blot the landscape all over the place, and more are being built daily.

A quick search shows that the waiting list for a Tesla is quite a bit shorter than pretty much any Toyota atm. My DIL just dropped off the list for her Y62 ( ordered 6 months ago, still more than 12 to wait ) and grabbed a demo that came up.

ALL new cars are hampered by the supply chain issue that has plagued us since covid. EVs are no different. Even the shortage of chips from TSMC is causing problems for car builders, and unfortunately the elephant in that room is potentially their biggest single customer, Apple, who won't wait while Tesla gets a few chips. While I'm sure TSMC has contingencies, it's still a big factor.

Electric vehicle (EV) discounts and incentives per state in Australia | RACV (https://www.racv.com.au/royalauto/transport/electric-vehicles/electric-car-discounts-government-incentives-australia.html#:~:text=%241%2C500%20subsidy%20on%2 0stamp%20duty,workplace%20and%20public%20EV%20char gers).

Tax Concessions for Electric Vehicles - Pilot Partners (https://www.pilotpartners.com.au/tax-concessions-for-electric-vehicles/#:~:text=Import%20tariffs,an%20external%20source%2 0of%20power).

Waiting for an EV? New Tesla Model 3s available in less than a month (https://thedriven.io/2023/02/02/waiting-for-an-ev-new-tesla-model-3s-available-in-less-than-a-month/#:~:text=Tesla%20Model%203%20wait%20times,reduced% 20%E2%80%9CEstimated%20Delivery%E2%80%9D%20times).

[Tins]

And I swear it's not just me saying our lack of emissions standards is encouraging EV manufacturers to send all their EV's to markets with emissions standards.

Australian fuel efficiency standards vital for CO2 cuts, US research finds | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/australian-fuel-efficiency-standards-are-vital-for-co2-cuts-us-research-finds)



No, it isn't. That article links to a well known activist organisation. I'm not likely to take them at face value.

[Homestar]

I don't want to force anyone to do anything they don't want. I can see no way I can do what I want with a 4x4 EV. I can see that for many many people an EV is not an option at this stage.

It's just that Australia wants to reduce it's carbon we are at some point going to need to stop selling ICE cars and eventually even stop driving them. Gasp. Every new ICE car sold now has at the very least hopefully 10 years of useful life for which it needs fossil fuel. That's why we need more EV's asap.

And I swear it's not just me saying our lack of emissions standards is encouraging EV manufacturers to send all their EV's to markets with emissions standards.

Australian fuel efficiency standards vital for CO2 cuts, US research finds | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/australian-fuel-efficiency-standards-are-vital-for-co2-cuts-us-research-finds)

Soo much stuff on it. if you google "binding emissions standards EV" you'll get several pages of people calling for them. Right up to and including some car makers! Even VW!!!

“Our company was to first to warn that this country would become a ‘third world dumping ground’ for obsolete auto technology. This has become a rallying cry,” Mr Sansom claimed.
“… A federally mandated emissions target for our industry is non-negotiable if Australia’s supply of electric vehicles is to grow from a trickle to a flow and thereby start to meet ever growing demand,” he added.
VW Group Australia claims to hold '''leadership position''' in EV discussion | 7NEWS (https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/motoring/vw-group-australia-claims-to-hold-leadership-position-in-ev-discussion-c-7938089)

If you want to understand why the carmakers are sending cars to europe.. have a read. Massive penalties if they don't hit their CO2 fleet averages.

CO₂ emission performance standards for cars and vans (https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/transport-emissions/road-transport-reducing-co2-emissions-vehicles/co2-emission-performance-standards-cars-and-vans_en)

So based on the links you’ve supplied light vehicles make up less than 8% of emissions so even cutting this to zero isn’t going to have a huge effect overall - there’s plenty of bigger targets we should be worried about before looking for the small stuff.

[Arapiles]

..... Being RHD, we're lucky that South Africa, China and the UK form a major part of their market or we wouldn't get their cars at all.

China is LHD, not RHD.

[JDNSW]

The major countries to drive on the left can be summarised as :-

UK, Japan, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Thailand. 'Also rans" include South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and a string of smaller countries.

Of these it is perhaps worth noting that India, Indonesia, Thailand, while not having very high car ownership today, make up for it by the size of the population, and have a rising living standard. India is expected to become the largest country by population in the fairly near future.

[Narangga]

The major countries to drive on the left can be summarised as :-

UK, Japan, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Thailand. 'Also rans" include South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and a string of smaller countries.

Of these it is perhaps worth noting that India, Indonesia, Thailand, while not having very high car ownership today, make up for it by the size of the population, and have a rising living standard. India is expected to become the largest country by population in the fairly near future.

Certainly interesting when you map it out John.

List of left- & right-driving countries (https://www.worldstandards.eu/cars/list-of-left-driving-countries/)

[Tins]

This vid may interest you. Marquess has a tech channel which is huge. He is a super fan of EVs. Works in New Jersey. This is from one of his smaller channels.


https://youtu.be/BA2qJKU8t2k

[chuck]

I was in Kilmore tonight.

Bloke comes up to the Woolies counter and asks about the electric charger for his motorbike.

The charger is not working.

This is looked after by centre managment.

They are not there at 7.00 on a Saturday night.

Motorbike rider is stuck.

[Tins]

I was in Kilmore tonight.

Bloke comes up to the Woolies counter and asks about the electric charger for his motorbike.

The charger is not working.

This is looked after by centre managment.

They are not there at 7.00 on a Saturday night.

Motorbike rider is stuck.

Bit of a bugger if he's headed to the other side of "Pretty Sally".

[scarry]

I have a Cousin who lives in London.

He has been telling me the thieves have been cutting off the charging leads of the EV chargers, for the copper,which they sell as scrap.

[RANDLOVER]

The major countries to drive on the left can be summarised as :-

UK, Japan, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Thailand. 'Also rans" include South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and a string of smaller countries.

Of these it is perhaps worth noting that India, Indonesia, Thailand, while not having very high car ownership today, make up for it by the size of the population, and have a rising living standard. India is expected to become the largest country by population in the fairly near future.

The also rans as you call them, are mostly part of the British Empire the greatest superpower the world has ever seen by scale, which has now been surpassed by it's little brother the USA, the greatest superpower by military might and influence to this day. People think that "the sun never set on the British Empire" is just a saying, but actually from NZ, Aus, Hong Kong in the east, followed by India, Ceylon, Africa and finally to Canada in the west, the sun really did not set on the empire!

[Captain_Rightfoot]

While I'd like to discuss just what it is you feel needs to be reversed, that's a sure path to CA.



I'm really struggling to understand your argument. There are absolutely no disincentives to EV purchase here. In fact the scales are very much tipped in their favour. The artificial inflation of fuel prices is one way ( lot to say about that but the CA thing looms ). The various tax concessions are another. EV allocations? Once again, this is a RHD market and thus a drop in the ocean for the big players, but EV deliveries are doing better than others. NO, the biggest disincentive to EVs in this country is that they are totally unsuited to it. We cover distances in a year that most Europeans wouldn't in their lifetime, and EVs are hopeless at that. Our grid is in no way ready for an influx of what amounts to at least double the average household consumption eating EVs. And most Aussies that I have known do not want to have to plan every journey around a wall outlet. I know that I don't. I want to go where the whim takes me and not have to come home on a tow truck ( although my car of choice is capable of giving me that luxury ).

The thing that will take a long time is getting EVs accepted without some sort of evangelistic force.



Australia always takes cars from the higher specced end of the market. The vast majority of cars sold here already meet the harshest regulations of the EU. Even the cheaper imports from closer to home meet US specs, and California is on about the same levels as the EU, so fuel consumption is world class. It's only been things like Landcruisers, which didn't sell in Europe, that have not been at that level, and that's changing right now.

AS for not caring about emissions, are you serious? Govt policies on emissions have decimated the power industry. Victoria in particular is actively campaigning to get gas cooking out of the household, while at the same time having massive gas reserves they are happy to sell os. Wind turbines blot the landscape all over the place, and more are being built daily.

A quick search shows that the waiting list for a Tesla is quite a bit shorter than pretty much any Toyota atm. My DIL just dropped off the list for her Y62 ( ordered 6 months ago, still more than 12 to wait ) and grabbed a demo that came up.

ALL new cars are hampered by the supply chain issue that has plagued us since covid. EVs are no different. Even the shortage of chips from TSMC is causing problems for car builders, and unfortunately the elephant in that room is potentially their biggest single customer, Apple, who won't wait while Tesla gets a few chips. While I'm sure TSMC has contingencies, it's still a big factor.

Electric vehicle (EV) discounts and incentives per state in Australia | RACV (https://www.racv.com.au/royalauto/transport/electric-vehicles/electric-car-discounts-government-incentives-australia.html#:~:text=%241%2C500%20subsidy%20on%2 0stamp%20duty,workplace%20and%20public%20EV%20char gers).

Tax Concessions for Electric Vehicles - Pilot Partners (https://www.pilotpartners.com.au/tax-concessions-for-electric-vehicles/#:~:text=Import%20tariffs,an%20external%20source%2 0of%20power).

Waiting for an EV? New Tesla Model 3s available in less than a month (https://thedriven.io/2023/02/02/waiting-for-an-ev-new-tesla-model-3s-available-in-less-than-a-month/#:~:text=Tesla%20Model%203%20wait%20times,reduced% 20%E2%80%9CEstimated%20Delivery%E2%80%9D%20times).

So, deep breath .. what don't you understand?

1. Yes Tesla has reasonably supply of one model. The link you provided to was a small amount of model 3's they have in excess. I believe they were cancellations .. people cancelling for another model. For the most part Tesla has multiple month waits. Probably not as long as Toyota, but they brought that on themselves.

Most manufacturers have many month waits. Some exceeding 12 months. Demand for EV's far far exceeds the supply we are seeing in Australia. Many manufacturers are "express an interest and we'll let you know when we have cars". Hyundai are releasing 100-200 cars every few months in a whacky online bidding process!

Number of electric vehicles on Australian roads soars as demand exceeds supply | Electric vehicles | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/07/number-of-electric-vehicles-on-australian-roads-soars-as-demand-exceeds-supply)

2. The reason why this is happening is because in places like europe manufacturers have to hit an average fuel consumption across all their sales. The targets are hard and biting with big penalties. The best way for them to meet their average and not get penalised is by selling EV's. It's either that or buy EV credits of other manufacturers who have exceeded their targets (ouch).

Please do read this and see what the Euros are facing and why manufacturers are sending as many EV's as they can there. This is what I'm talking about.

CO₂ emission performance standards for cars and vans (https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/transport-emissions/road-transport-reducing-co2-emissions-vehicles/co2-emission-performance-standards-cars-and-vans_en)

3. No, I do not expect you or anyone to go and buy and EV. Do whatever works and whatever makes you happy.

We sell a million vehicles a year in Australia. Some of them do long road trips and all sort of things that make them unsuitable for being an EV at this point. How about we worry about them later? Let's do what is easy now.

In the meantime, there are a LOT of cars that would be perfectly suitable to be an EV. Our EV will replace our VW golf. It just drives around the city. In the 7 years we've owned it - If it had been an EV like the one we are ordering, I can only think of two trips (in seven years) where we might have needed to charge outside the home. It does most of the trips we as a family do.

Meanwhile on the other side of the garage we have the defender. If we're going on a trip, or towing something, or doing something that the EV can't do then we can use that. There.. easy as. Man it's hard enough to charge a phone on Fraser Is let alone a car.

4. Don't worry about the grid. It's going to be OK. Energy providers have lots of levers they can pull and they will work it out. Just in the last few days I see we've got our first EV plan on the market. Power companies are encouraging people to charge when they have excess power, and discouraging them from charging at peak times. Easy as. I expect more developments in this space too. Long term there is potential that they might use EV's as grid storage and all sorts of cool things.

https://www.originenergy.com.au/electric-vehicles/energy-plan/

5. Regardless of whether you like EV's, believe in climate change etc etc... It makes really good sense to make city cars EV's to improve our fuel security.. which is frankly quite tenuous.

https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/australia-91-reliant-on-foreign-oil-research-report/

6. Again.. I don't give a flying anything if you want to drive your ICE car. Hell I'll be driving mine when appropriate. Let me say this however, buying an EV I believe is a solid justifiable decision for our family. No longer will I be paying over $100 to fill up a poxy 1.4l car! Nope just pick a sunny day and plug it in once or twice a week for free charging.

No longer will I be being extorted by VW for servicing and fixing of things that just should not break. No more $400 for a yearly service where they don't really do anything. I'm not sure whether you're aware but EV's require significantly less servicing. Basically it's just check the brake fluid every two years and that's it.

And the best part - if I've got a job or a trip that needs to be done I can just take the defender off charge and jump in.

And.. you know what.. EV's drive really well too! Suuuper nice.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I forgot.. point 7!

Yes governments are now starting to support EV's. The federal government were anti EV until the last change, so the states were trying to make up for it. Australia was happily subsidising the purchase of diesel utes but very much not EV's. Governments right around the world are competing for EV supply. It's just how it is.

Utes beaut? Tax write-offs are carrying the hopes of Australia's recovery (https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/2021/06/11/utes-tax-write-offs/)

If Australia is to meet emissions targets EV's are going to have to be part of the solution. It's unavoidable. The sooner we get on with it .. the easier it will be later.

[NavyDiver]

The Ram 1500 REV will enter production next year and arrive in dealerships in late 2024.

Following the world debut of the 1500 Revolution BEV Concept at CES 2023 last month, Ram Trucks has surprised everyone with the unveiling of its production electric pickup, the 1500 REV, in a Super Bowl commercial.
2025 Ram 1500 REV Debuts In Super Bowl Ad As Brand's First EV Pickup (https://insideevs.com/news/652096/2025-ram-1500-rev-debuts-in-big-game-ad-as-brand-first-ev-pickup/)
touch down? 2025 sound very like the date for solid state batteries???

[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

<font color="#2B2B2B"><span style="font-family: Roboto">
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE1584pFNRY


Range Extender!! Will it be ICE or Hydrogen? Just listened to the video and got a Disco replacement option perhaps?

[Homestar]

We have a range extender on the work Ram one of our techs drives - it’s a long range tank running the Diesel engine…. Gets around 1200KM on a tank… [emoji16][emoji56]

Not sure how far the EV version will go towing the 3.2 tonne service trailer but I’m betting it wouldn’t make it as far as it needs to go each day.

[NavyDiver]

This will be interesting. The High Court Challenge to Vic EV tax/road user charge. It is two people backed by Federal government against state governments.

Life is confusing at times

I fully agree EV and all need to contribute to road maintenance. How that is funded is about to be determined perhaps legally at least.

""An excise is in essence a tax on some step taken in dealing with goods," the Commonwealth submissions said."

"The Queensland submissions suggested the tax does not meet any of the criteria defining an excise which include a tax on goods that is imposed before consumption and which alters the price of the goods."

Last point is interesting ? I pay the tax after I drive bases on KM traveled. Sorry - It may not a tax or excise [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

It may be a [B]charge so might make me go further [biggrin]


High Court to hear challenge against Victoria'&#39;'s electric vehicle tax, determine if levy is unconstitutional - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-14/high-court-challenge-victoria-electric-vehicle-tax-constitution/101969422?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web)

[PhilipA]

So Victorian EV virtue signalers want even more of a free ride than they already get?

Interesting that there seems to be a backlash in the UK now that EVs are more expensive to refuel than diesels, from several articles I have read.
Regards PhilipA

[scarry]

Interesting that there seems to be a backlash in the UK now that EVs are more expensive to refuel than diesels, from several articles I have read.
Regards PhilipA

Really?

Any links?

[NavyDiver]

Really?

Any links?
I think its the High Court tax case- Federal and two Victorians V states on taxation levied by Comonwealth not states.


The EV Road User charge here in Mexico is in the firing line at the High Court.

High Court to hear challenge against Victoria's electric vehicle tax, determine if levy is unconstitutional (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-14/high-court-challenge-victoria-electric-vehicle-tax-constitution/101969422)Might be like watching paint dry as we all know we all need to pay either via state or Federal for road upkeep[thumbsupbig]

[Narangga]

I needed a motor vehicle to drive on the road. Any vehicle requires that I source and/or pay for the fuel it uses to get me where I want to go. I have registration and other government charges (both existing and those they may wish to charge)to pay because I am a road user. That's the reality I face with my current vehicles and any I buy in the future.

This vehicle was ordered under the laws of land as they exist. Yes the removal of the FBT on this vehicle was appreciated as it meant I was able to afford to do it, but I did it knowing what I have laid out above, not to 'avoid' any tax, levy or charge, but like all things to maximise the advantage to me under the existing legislation.

For me an EV is not about dodging paying for fuel, taxes or whatever. I bought (well ordered [bigsad]) one as outlined above, not expecting a free ride (other than when I source my own fuel for it). Here endeth the rant! [bighmmm]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I needed a motor vehicle to drive on the road. Any vehicle requires that I source and/or pay for the fuel it uses to get me where I want to go. I have registration and other government charges (both existing and those they may wish to charge)to pay because I am a road user. That's the reality I face with my current vehicles and any I buy in the future.

This vehicle was ordered under the laws of land as they exist. Yes the removal of the FBT on this vehicle was appreciated as it meant I was able to afford to do it, but I did it knowing what I have laid out above, not to 'avoid' any tax, levy or charge, but like all things to maximise the advantage to me under the existing legislation.

For me an EV is not about dodging paying for fuel, taxes or whatever. I bought (well ordered [bigsad]) one as outlined above, not expecting a free ride (other than when I source my own fuel for it). Here endeth the rant! [bighmmm]
People who order diesel utes were being given "instant write off" which is a massive tax dodge. No one is complaining about that??

[PhilipA]

For business only.
Regards PhilipA

[scarry]

People who order diesel utes were being given "instant write off" which is a massive tax dodge. No one is complaining about that??

But there is no depreciation of the vehicle over the years.

When the vehicle is moved on,the sale price becomes income,depending on the vehicles write down value,less the GST[bigsad]Which was the same as before.

So it is not really as big a tax dodge as some think.

[NavyDiver]

For business only.
Regards PhilipA

For business only or Business use only [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] Almost every tradey deer hunters 4wd work ute accounts might need a SHHHHHHHHH

[NavyDiver]

Deer is hanging up for a week or two [thumbsupbig] Jerky and 80kg or more pending

EVs can be much more it seems

"Ice racing an electric bike in Sweden in February, for more than just fun.

Remember RGNT? It’s been a while since we last heard from the Swedish electric bike maker, but that doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been busy. Besides building its electric motorbike lineup for customers, members of the team have also set themselves a new goal: To beat the World Speed Record on ice for an electric motorcycle.
How does the RGNT (https://www.rideapart.com/news/582698/rgnt-european-electric-test-rides/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) team plan to do this? With its specially-built Project Aurora ice race bike. If you’re going to be in Sweden on February 24 and 25, 2023, then you may want to check out the SMA Svenska Motorsport Alliansen Speed Weekend in Årsunda. That’s where RGNT engineer Timmy Eriksson will be racing a modified RGNT No. 1 Classic SE, and hopefully making history in the process. "

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA17O0Cx.img?w=612&h=344&m=6

[NavyDiver]

Not sure if we are close as I still think the Solid state batteries are the key part



https://youtu.be/D8rETSZmah4

[Narangga]

At least 4 noted in a transport company yard in Darwin during the week.

[NavyDiver]

not the right battery or fuel cell yet

"BEV sales year-to-date in 2023:

Ford Mustang Mach-E: 4,409 (up 1%)
Ford F-150 Lightning: 3,600 (up 3,296%)
Ford E-Transit: 761 (up 301%)
Total: 8,770 (up 88%) and 3.0% share


For reference, in 2022, Ford more than doubled its BEV sales to 61,575 units (https://insideevs.com/news/629932/us-ford-bev-sales-december2022/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) and 3.3 percent of the total volume."

Seems a lot to me[bigwhistle]

[PhilipA]

Except they had to halt production as a Lightning caught fire in the shipping yard.
Hoovies Lightning battery failed a day after he sold it back to the dealer.
regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

Except they had to halt production as a Lightning caught fire in the shipping yard.
Hoovies Lightning battery failed a day after he sold it back to the dealer.
regards PhilipA
No except at all Philip. That was a brief stop and they are back at it. Disappointed to say they news on what occurred is limited. My thoughts on the current lithium tech is aa bit BLAHH as well mate

In other news here Hyzon Motors is making a silent entry perhaps here in Melbourne? I do hold a bit in the US exchange. Very in the red for that one[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] NOT A BUY- Do not bail me out[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE!!!!

The makers of Australia’s first locally designed and built hydrogen-powered truck say it will be towing cars and potentially collecting garbage this year in a rollout they believe could spur a shift away from highly polluting diesel vehicles (https://www.theage.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p5cmys).Hyzon Motors says the 27-tonne truck it will unveil at its headquarters in Noble Park, in Melbourne’s south-east, on Monday is an Australian first and shows the trucking industry can go green.

https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.24%2C$multiply_1.9577%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$widt h_756%2C$x_41%2C$y_0/t_crop_custom/q_62%2Cf_auto/45edb80aa9701d8fea33c8cebe4a5e38080e9427

Hydrogen trucks to be launched in effort to cut diesel pollution (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/hydrogen-trucks-promise-a-green-garbage-run-you-won-t-hear-coming-20230302-p5cowx.html)

I do get a bit excited about Hydrogen of course :)

[NavyDiver]

2024 Range Rover Electric is expected to be unique & capable [Update]Last Updated On: February 14, 2023 3:17 am. Original article by: Sagar Parikh (https://topelectricsuv.com/author/sagarparikh1/)


Will be the first Land Rover EV to go on sale
Confirmed to debut in 2024; to be followed by the Range Rover Sport EV
Could deliver an EPA-est. range of 275-300 miles
Likely to be more expensive than the Mercedes EQS SUV, starting at around USD 130,000

Update: ‘Design,’ ‘Interior’ and ‘Specifications’ sections revised.

2024 Range Rover Electric is expected to be unique & capable (https://topelectricsuv.com/news/land-rover/mla-platform-2022-range-rover/)


I am keen to see the hydrogen / Solid state battery settle in first. Not shocked to see this detail now. Still a way off for our little market I guess.

[NavyDiver]

Back to batteries for a minute- My theroy is some more like failures British Volt mega factory are likley!!

"Volkswagen’s first North American gigafactory will be in Canada (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/volkswagen-s-first-north-american-gigafactory-will-be-in-canada/ar-AA18zUvx)"
"The St. Thomas factory will be a joint venture between VW and Power Co (https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/volkswagen-group-steps-up-activities-in-north-america-canada-chosen-as-location-for-first-overseas-gigafactory-of-its-battery-company-powerco-se-15615), a new independent company created by the automaker to oversee its massive $20 billion battery initiatives (https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/7/23198203/volkswagen-ev-battery-factory-power-co-investment). After starting construction on two other gigafactories, this will be the third plant worldwide and PowerCo’s first cell factory in North America. Production at the St. Thomas factory is set to kick off in 2027.
According to VW, the St. Thomas plant “will equip the Group brand’s BEVs in the region with cutting-edge battery cells.”,

....The St. Thomas factory will be a joint venture between VW and Power Co

In 2021, VW unveiled plans (https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/15/22325813/vw-volkswagen-power-day-battery-electric-car-announcement) to build six battery cell production plants in Europe by 2030, including the facility in Salzgitter and one in Skelleftea, Sweden. A third plant is under construction in Valencia, Spain, and the fourth factory will be based in Eastern Europe. The plants will eventually have a production capacity of 240 gigawatt-hours a year."

It is not Solid State but the Quatumscape investment by VW is mentioned.

What the article also dumps in is

"The factory is also part of a host of new EV facilities that are expected to come online in the coming years. Globally, battery production is expected to grow from 95.3 gigawatt-hours (GWh) in 2020 to 410.5 GWh in 2024, according to GlobalData, a data and analytics company.
Ford has said its three new battery plants (https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/27/22696427/ford-ev-battery-factory-tennessee-kentucky-investment) will enable 129 GWh a year of production capacity. General Motors (https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/4/22313251/gm-ev-second-battery-factory-lg-chem-tennessee) is planning four new battery factories in the US for a total annual capacity of 140 GWh, while Stellantis is planning a new factory (https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/24/23139593/stellantis-samsung-ev-battery-factory-indiana) in Indiana, which will have an initial annual production capacity of 23 GWh."

They all add up to a LOT of batteries. I will be waiting the much better ones myself.

[Tombie]

Love the shift, let’s mine other stuff not Coal or Oil [emoji41]
This is going to be interesting!

Knock on effect - oil derived goods - price Up
Rarer earth elements - price up
Abuse of foreign labour forces - up

Meanwhile Western society can quietly sit back smuggly quoting better environmental responsibility.

Welcome to the age of stupidity

[scarry]

2024 Range Rover Electric is expected to be unique & capable [Update]Last Updated On: February 14, 2023 3:17 am. Original article by: Sagar Parikh (https://topelectricsuv.com/author/sagarparikh1/)


Will be the first Land Rover EV to go on sale
Confirmed to debut in 2024; to be followed by the Range Rover Sport EV
Could deliver an EPA-est. range of 275-300 miles
Likely to be more expensive than the Mercedes EQS SUV, starting at around USD 130,000

Update: ‘Design,’ ‘Interior’ and ‘Specifications’ sections revised.

2024 Range Rover Electric is expected to be unique & capable (https://topelectricsuv.com/news/land-rover/mla-platform-2022-range-rover/)


I am keen to see the hydrogen / Solid state battery settle in first. Not shocked to see this detail now. Still a way off for our little market I guess.

Mate ordered the RRS,Hybrid,8 months ago.
Cancelled the order,more unknown lengthy delays,more features deleted,more price increases.
Thought he would wait 12 months and see how the orders are then,but they have said it will only be EV,so not what he wants,won’t suit their needs.

So went back to the Jap brand he had before,in stock,top of the range,$120K less,and loves it.

I can’t see how going to only EV’s is going to do the company any favours.
They really need to increase their sales to be viable,not limit the range to suit a smaller market than they have now.

[NavyDiver]

Mate ordered the RRS,Hybrid,8 months ago.
Cancelled the order,more unknown lengthy delays,more features deleted,more price increases.
Thought he would wait 12 months and see how the orders are then,but they have said it will only be EV,so not what he wants,won’t suit their needs.

So went back to the Jap brand he had before,in stock,top of the range,$120K less,and loves it.

I can’t see how going to only EV’s is going to do the company any favours.
They really need to increase their sales to be viable,not limit the range to suit a smaller market than they have now.
Not at all disagreeing at all for my own Disco replacement needs. I want Solid state batteries or Hydrogen FCEV or Solid state batteries with hybrid hydrogen FCEV needed before I jump that way[thumbsupbig]

[p38arover]

After watching the John Cadogen YT video about battery fires this afternoon and what one shpuld do if there is a fire (basically get well away and upwind), I Googled cobalt in Li-Ion batteries.

It seems that the cobalt is the reason for the fires. From what I could gather, batteries without cobalt don't catch fire.

[ramblingboy42]

Welcome to the age of stupidity

has anything changed in big business Mike ?

[Narangga]

After watching the John Cadogen YT video about battery fires this afternoon and what one should do if there is a fire (basically get well away and upwind), I Googled cobalt in Li-Ion batteries.

It seems that the cobalt is the reason for the fires. From what I could gather, batteries without cobalt don't catch fire.

Having checked what I have in my camper trailer under my bed I find that they are cobalt free. Thanks for that Ron - I will sleep so much easier when camping now. [biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

Always stated my MG is NOT good going fast a long way or even a moderate run. The 240km supposed range was never ever achieved at speed.

A newer version allegedly has 440km (40km (WLTP)‡) Bet the ‡ means IF you push, don't use AC or heating, have all windows up and do not drive above 80kph and the temperature is perfect and a tail wind is helping [biggrin][biggrin]

Suspect 2 years before I can get what I want so flipping the XS EV with 36000+ or keeping it??

Mid June to Dec 2023 delivery. I am first in line for the new temporary car Ringwood MG place[thumbsupbig]
https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-mg-zs-ev-long-range-confirmed/


Interesting chat with the dealer 10 current orders for the new Rear wheel drive cheapie coming at about the same time.
2023 MG 4 electric hatch: Everything we know (https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/2023-mg-4-electric-hatch-everything-we-know)

Not really known prices yet Perhaps "[B]base model 4 start at AU$49,500 drive-away"

Front wheel drive is NOT my joy with the very torque smooth ev power enabling just a bit of wheel slip/spin if its at all slippery.

Choices now. Sell the current or hold it for the kids?

Port fairy runs will be much easier in the new so called Long Range MG. Appreciate my Disco is about 800km range on a tank so the claim of Long is bit of a stretch in comparison. [bigrolf] The Long range Tank in my prior D3 was 1200km or more! That was long range :) Expensive to fill of course!

[Homestar]

I think any OEM claiming long range for their EV’s is more than a stretch but is actually false advertising.

Might see if I can find an advert saying that somewhere and send it to the ACCC.

From their website -

Businesses shouldn't try to gain an unfair advantage by making misleading claims about their products or services.

Claims should be true, accurate and based on reasonable grounds.

A business must be able to prove any claim they advertise.

Edit - easy to find, MG has an advert claiming ‘long range’ - no asterisk about that being compared to their standard range of EV’s so I would think that breaches the second line - It’s BS like this around EV advertising that really annoys me.

[cjc_td5]

The limited range of EVs at highway speeds is the major limiting factor to us, living in regional WA. Most EVs with a stated range of 450km are no more than 250km range on a run from Bunbury to Perth, which is flat and straight with no opportunity for regen to the batteries.

A plug in hybrid would be a perfect option, but most manufacturers seem to be pulling their models now and moving to EV only...?

[4bee]

Not at all disagreeing at all for my own Disco replacement needs. I want Solid state batteries or Hydrogen FCEV or Solid state batteries with hybrid hydrogen FCEV needed before I jump that way[thumbsupbig]

I guess you have already considered a Trailer with a Honda Petrol Driven Generator installed in it? I am sure you have, but discarded that idea because it was a crap idea, right? If you get a Tandem trailer you will be able to increase the Battery Storage capacity.
No kid.:Rolling::Thump:

TiC.

[Homestar]

The Honda wouldn’t cut it but I do have 60 and 100KVA gens that would keep up with an EV’s power demands if they could tow them - with 300 litres of diesel on board they’d get a fair distance too. 🤣

[4bee]

The Honda wouldn’t cut it but I do have 60 and 100KVA gens that would keep up with an EV’s power demands if they could tow them - with 300 litres of diesel on board they’d get a fair distance too. 🤣

Even better. :Rolling:

[3toes]

My thought with an electric vehicle is if not paying cash to arrange a loan where the lender takes the residual risk. This way so long as you manage the car to keep within the terms of the agreement you can just hand it back and take a new one to replace it

This is as technology is evolving and based on UK experience a 3 year old electric car is as a result way older than a 3 year old ICE vehicle. High mileage or over 3 years old are a hard sell in the second hand market where the economics of ownership cost still favour an ICE vehicle

[101RRS]

Just watched a Youtube vid about towing with an EV - as was totally expected the EV used twice as much power when towing as to not towing where an ice typically uses 50% more fuel in similar circumstances - but we already know this.

The interesting bit is when they went to recharge - the charging points are only designed to fit one vehicle in per point and the depending on make the vehicle has to be pointed in or reversed in. What they found was it is impossible to recharge the car (BMW in this case) with the caravan attached because the car could not get close enough to the charging point. They had to unhitch the caravan and park it somewhere and then take the car to the charger, grab a cuppa for the next hour or so while the car charged then go back and collect the caravan - and repeat every 180km or so.

A little more thought need to go into the design of the surrounds to charging stations. Also highlights that when towing the time required charging is getting close to the same as being on the actual road.

[vnx205]

An EV isn't the right vehicle for some people.

However some of the critics of EVs try to suggest that they are completely useless.

Their criticisms seem to be based on the assumption that everyone needs to tow a 3.5 tonne caravan on a 1000 km trip every time they set forth.

I have yet to see a Toyota Corolla towing a 3.5 tonne caravan or a huge yacht, but it is the best selling car of all time.

If the EV critics' criterion for what makes a car useful were correct, then Toyota should not have sold any.

There is no problem with someone saying that an EV doesn't meet their needs, but a Toyota Corolla wouldn't meet their needs either, yet their are a lot of happy Corolla owners around the world.

There are also a lot of happy EV owners. They don't tow 3.5 tonne caravans, but neither do Corolla owners or the vast majority of other drivers.

[Homestar]

Absolutely agree, EV’s are certainly the right car for many applications and people and I actually think most families could make one work easily as a second car leaving the dual cab to get them to Dingo **** Creek on the weekends.

There’s the zealots on both sides - ICE owners that think EV’s are useless at anything and everything and EV users that think the whole world should switch to them straight away and that they can do everything.

Like pretty much everything these days the truth falls somewhere in the middle.

[cjc_td5]

There was an interesting article in our state paper yesterday about Nissan developing a modular system that included a petrol range extender engine and electric drive motor(s). Might be a good option for retrofit in to older landies in the future... They aim to have it across their model range in the next few years.

[Narangga]

Absolutely agree, EV’s are certainly the right car for many applications and people and I actually think most families could make one work easily as a second car leaving the dual cab to get them to Dingo **** Creek on the weekends.

There’s the zealots on both sides - ICE owners that think EV’s are useless at anything and everything and EV users that think the whole world should switch to them straight away and that they can do everything.

Like pretty much everything these days the truth falls somewhere in the middle.

Or Darby & Joan (for this pair of little black ducks).

[Captain_Rightfoot]

An EV isn't the right vehicle for some people.

However some of the critics of EVs try to suggest that they are completely useless.

Their criticisms seem to be based on the assumption that everyone needs to tow a 3.5 tonne caravan on a 1000 km trip every time they set forth.

I have yet to see a Toyota Corolla towing a 3.5 tonne caravan or a huge yacht, but it is the best selling car of all time.

If the EV critics' criterion for what makes a car useful were correct, then Toyota should not have sold any.

There is no problem with someone saying that an EV doesn't meet their needs, but a Toyota Corolla wouldn't meet their needs either, yet their are a lot of happy Corolla owners around the world.

There are also a lot of happy EV owners. They don't tow 3.5 tonne caravans, but neither do Corolla owners or the vast majority of other drivers.
Our EV is replacing our VW golf. In the 7 years we have owned it - I can only think of one weekend trip where I might have had to charge outside the home.

For longer trips, big jobs we have a defender! Everything else can be done by the EV.

[JDNSW]

I would love to have an EV. But two basic problems:-

1. I see no prospect of being able to afford any EV, let alone one that would work for me.

2. As far as I am aware, there is no EV available in Australia that could actually reach my house (ground clearance, approach and departure angles, etc. - four wheel drive is essential most of the time).

Last Monday I drove from here to Brisbane via Cecil Plains, 3 on board with the back of the 110 full to the roof leaving one rear seat free. One stop for fuel and a meal at Goondiwindi for about half an hour. The other stop, for about an hour was at a on farm dam location to pick up a passenger. Saturday did the return trip, same stops. Getting out of here and the farm location at Cecil Plains required four wheel drive (there was 3" rain the previous day, and it is blacksoil). The 110, with a 60l aux tank, has a safe range of 1200km. Two drivers were used both ways.

Is there any EV even on the horizon, that would be remotely capable of this trip, at any price?

[Homestar]

Nope, not now - doubtful ever.

[PhilipA]

Just rto stir the pot a bit, here is an article from Reuters on insurance problems with EVs.
I guess all the stored batteries are a cheap source for EV converters but the insurance rates n the USA are a bit eyewatering.
Scratched EV battery? Your insurer may have to junk the whole car | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/scratched-ev-battery-your-insurer-may-have-junk-whole-car-2023-03-20/)

Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

Just rto stir the pot a bit, here is an article from Reuters on insurance problems with EVs.
I guess all the stored batteries are a cheap source for EV converters but the insurance rates n the USA are a bit eyewatering.
Scratched EV battery? Your insurer may have to junk the whole car | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/scratched-ev-battery-your-insurer-may-have-junk-whole-car-2023-03-20/)

Regards PhilipA

Lithium are if damaged at all

Only a year and a bit for Solid state non issue types I hope[biggrin]


you missed the perfect pot stir the Hydrogen fire?

"Toyota Withdraws Liquid Hydrogen Corolla After Testing Fire "[thumbsupbig]

On the bright side "The leak was detected by failsafe sensor, causing the supply of hydrogen to be cut and preventing the fire from spreading beyond the engine bay. The pipe design will be reviewed with the presumed aim of taking part in the second round of the season, the Fuji 24 Hours, in late May.

"

Of interest was the HEAT- The Corolla is a ICE engine fueled by hydrogen?

It might be this one


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf1QQAb8W0M

Odd as Toyota has fuel cells which are far cooler :spudnikboogie::spudnikboogie:The Mirai is speed limited to 175 kph so not likely to be a race in that set up.

My old MG[biggrin] Just started suggesting it needs [B]a second service soon[bawl][bawl][bawl] Getting close to the 39,000km and May 2003date alas[biggrin]

Just booked it- apparently is my 40,000 service and cost peanuts again[bigrolf]

Sell it, trade it or give it to kids???

Have to sell something to pay for the 500km new version about 59k- ouch .I suspect might get 400km range at speed[bigwhistle]It is a newer lithium battery tech "lithium iron phosphate" and almost twice the 42kWh size with 72.6kwh

- still not the right one in my book.

PS - off topic - So many Tyre kickers for my disco is driving me a bit nuts[thumbsupbig]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I would love to have an EV. But two basic problems:-

1. I see no prospect of being able to afford any EV, let alone one that would work for me.

2. As far as I am aware, there is no EV available in Australia that could actually reach my house (ground clearance, approach and departure angles, etc. - four wheel drive is essential most of the time).

Last Monday I drove from here to Brisbane via Cecil Plains, 3 on board with the back of the 110 full to the roof leaving one rear seat free. One stop for fuel and a meal at Goondiwindi for about half an hour. The other stop, for about an hour was at a on farm dam location to pick up a passenger. Saturday did the return trip, same stops. Getting out of here and the farm location at Cecil Plains required four wheel drive (there was 3" rain the previous day, and it is blacksoil). The 110, with a 60l aux tank, has a safe range of 1200km. Two drivers were used both ways.

Is there any EV even on the horizon, that would be remotely capable of this trip, at any price?
There is definitely not now. Personally I think we should stop beating ourselves up about it. [bigsmile]

For many people there is no EV replacement for what they do with their vehicle. That's OK. I think we should not worry about those cases, as there are plenty of people for whom an EV is a viable replacement. Let's work on them first, and by the time we've done that.. you never know.

In my case, we have the Defender for all that stuff, and our EV will be replacing our golf. It's going to be fine. In 7 years of owning the golf - if it was a 400k EV I reckon we would have only had to charge it once outside of the house. And - I could have taken the defender for that trip!

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Just rto stir the pot a bit, here is an article from Reuters on insurance problems with EVs.
I guess all the stored batteries are a cheap source for EV converters but the insurance rates n the USA are a bit eyewatering.
Scratched EV battery? Your insurer may have to junk the whole car | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/scratched-ev-battery-your-insurer-may-have-junk-whole-car-2023-03-20/)

Regards PhilipA
There was also a John Cadogan video on EV fires.

No one ever mentions this - but there are a few different types of EV batteries. NCA (Nickel Cobalt Aluminium) was the default until recently. Excellent energy density. Expensive though. Unfortunately though - in rare cases if they catch fire they are all but impossible to extinguish. Plus the cobalt gives off a particularly nasty gas.

Recently Tesla and BYD (there may be others) have started using LIFPO4. These batteries are cheaper to make, and don't have quite the density of NCA. The other advantages to them is they are longer lived (for all intents and purposes indefinite!), and far far more tolerant of charging. Plus a little side bonus, they rarely if ever catch fire. Oh and no nasty cobalt.

It should be noted that as at now the bulk of EV's coming into Australia (Tesla and BYD) are using LIFPO4.

Why Electric Cars Burn, Why It's Probably Overhyped and How to Fix It - CNET (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/why-electric-cars-burn-why-its-probably-overhyped-and-how-to-fix-it/)

[Homestar]

I think any OEM claiming long range for their EV’s is more than a stretch but is actually false advertising.

Might see if I can find an advert saying that somewhere and send it to the ACCC.

From their website -

Businesses shouldn't try to gain an unfair advantage by making misleading claims about their products or services.

Claims should be true, accurate and based on reasonable grounds.

A business must be able to prove any claim they advertise.

Edit - easy to find, MG has an advert claiming ‘long range’ - no asterisk about that being compared to their standard range of EV’s so I would think that breaches the second line - It’s BS like this around EV advertising that really annoys me.

We’ll I got an email back from the ACCC from the report I submitted - looks like I’m not the only one and MG aren’t the only ones being complained about but what that means is anyones guess but I now know at least I’m not the only one who thinks calling an EV ‘long range’ is false advertising.

[NavyDiver]

We’ll I got an email back from the ACCC from the report I submitted - looks like I’m not the only one and MG aren’t the only ones being complained about but what that means is anyones guess but I now know at least I’m not the only one who thinks calling an EV ‘long range’ is false advertising.
I wonder if people stating 2nd hand 2020 EV cars can go 320km would be FAKE to everyone like me as I have one and no way if can! Perhaps if driven at 40kph[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] Used, Demo and Near New 2020 MG Electric cars for sale in Australia - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/used/2020/mg/electric-fueltype/)

The only bit that didn't make me cross was the about 38k they felt the 42K odd new price they paid was OK??? I think some could have paid a bit more than I did of course![bigwhistle][bigwhistle].
Take GST and stamp duties.... of and the prices seem rather rude unles of course some one would like to give me that amount?

Tesla 2020 at 58K seem a bit ripe to me as well?
carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/used/2020/tesla/electric-fueltype/'sort=%7ePrice)
70ish K new!

to be fair 2020 Landrovers seem a bit ripe to me as well[biggrin]

carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/2020/land-rover/)

[4bee]

Just watched a Youtube vid about towing with an EV - as was totally expected the EV used twice as much power when towing as to not towing where an ice typically uses 50% more fuel in similar circumstances - but we already know this.

The interesting bit is when they went to recharge - the charging points are only designed to fit one vehicle in per point and the depending on make the vehicle has to be pointed in or reversed in. What they found was it is impossible to recharge the car (BMW in this case) with the caravan attached because the car could not get close enough to the charging point. They had to unhitch the caravan and park it somewhere and then take the car to the charger, grab a cuppa for the next hour or so while the car charged then go back and collect the caravan - and repeat every 180km or so.

A little more thought need to go into the design of the surrounds to charging stations. Also highlights that when towing the time required charging is getting close to the same as being on the actual road.


So, the price of many cups of tea & a biccies have to be factored into the overall cost when one is doing their pre-purchase sums. That could add millions over the life of the EV the way some places charge since Covid.[bigrolf]

Seems the alternative is the vehicle charging point should be fitted to the Driver's or even Passenger's (or both for the just in case situation)door frame as a compromise. Silly? You bet. the manufacturers are probably paying stupid money for some engineer's salary to consider these things in our new world.


Just sayin':rulez:

[Tombie]

We must all do our bit for the planet.

I just unplugged an entire row of electric cars, that no one was using.

[Hogarthde]

Tombie, any possibility you are related to Spudfan?[bigwhistle]

[scarry]

We must all do our bit for the planet.

I just unplugged an entire row of electric cars, that no one was using.

In the UK they do a better job,they cut off the leads and take them down to the scrap place[bighmmm][biggrin]

[4bee]

Tombie, any possibility you are related to Spudfan?[bigwhistle]

Only if his sister in law is spud's missus.
[bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

MG got its last service from me- $200 was not a problem - Pick up time verbal Report included Oil, Oil filter and ....... [bigwhistle] That was remove when I asked where they put it[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

My sons Kia service at 5,000km or by date due last week cost ME $400+ [bawl][bawl][bawl][bawl] That more than the two services on the EV over its life so far!

I do need to find some cash to change to the 400-500km version I have coming in June/July. Washing the Dishes perhaps???[biggrin]

Several new cheaper ones including a rear wheel drive slightly smaller than my XS "MG will launch replacements for the MG 3 and ZS by the end of 2024, plus a refreshed HS and the new Cyberste" Insider information suggested both the New XS and 4 ev may be here in July. "The Chinese brand has revealed prices for the long-range version of its ZS EV (https://www.news.com.au/motoring/new-cars/mg-zs-ev-review-price-specifications-drive-impressions/news-story/5d556cfb36e1f9b2c8bb74bf5b0b6482) and confirmed the new MG4 small electric hatchback (https://www.news.com.au/technology/motoring/new-cars/mg4-hatch-could-spawn-a-performance-version/news-story/29d8e132a80dd55297860767be780aa8) will arrive in the second half of this year."
None can tow the boat yet of course! My solid state battery just might pay for the new car like it did for my current one. I could loose all that money of course- NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE.

[PhilipA]

So all you need is about 15 years' worth of services and fuel to cover the difference in initial cost between an ICE car and the EV.

Please do not quote how "cheap" it is to own an EV when you are given subsidies by stupid governments promoting coal fired vehicles which embody slavery of children in their components.

About 80% of the population cannot afford EV purchase prices.ie those earning under 100K who are being screwed by government policy again .
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

Yes, one of my pet peeves is some in the EV community (none here thankfully) spruiking that everyone should run out and get one when most can't come close to affording one - a lot more would if they had the means or the prices were closer to be comparable I'm sure but they are simply a pipe dream to most having this all shoved in their faces day in and day out.

The world isn't going to be saved by EV's when so few can afford them that's for sure, and in reality you would want a decent solar and battery setup at home to go along with it, so another $20 to $30K for that to make it closer to being 'green'

[DiscoDB]

So all you need is about 15 years' worth of services and fuel to cover the difference in initial cost between an ICE car and the EV.

Please do not quote how "cheap" it is to own an EV when you are given subsidies by stupid governments promoting coal fired vehicles which embody slavery of children in their components.

About 80% of the population cannot afford EV purchase prices.ie those earning under 100K who are being screwed by government policy again .
Regards PhilipA

I remember the same arguments about cost of ownership being used a decade ago for diesel vs petrol. People on this forum would argue the higher up front cost of a diesel would take more than a decade to be offset by lower fuel usage. Still being used today in the US where diesels remain unpopular.

Just remember Philip, 80% of the population can’t afford (or won’t buy) a new car anyway. New EV sales are targeting those that are prepared to forego other features for an EV instead.

A $50K-$100K car is still a $50K-$100K car - new buyers decide on what features they want based on what represents value to them. Some even pay a premium just for a “badge”.

The MG is the first to significantly bring down the entry price on an EV and won’t be the last.

So well done to NavyDiver for being an early adopter and sharing your experience. And well done to goingbush for showing what can be done with an old vehicle as well.

[Homestar]

I remember the same arguments about cost of ownership being used a decade ago for diesel vs petrol. People on this forum would argue the higher up front cost of a diesel would take more than a decade to be offset by lower fuel usage. Still being used today in the US where diesels remain unpopular.

Just remember Philip, 80% of the population can’t afford (or won’t buy) a new car anyway. New EV sales are targeting those that are prepared to forego other features for an EV instead.

A $50K-$100K car is still a $50K-$100K car - new buyers decide on what features they want based on what represent value to them. Some even pay a premium just for a “badge”.

The MG is the first to significantly bring down the entry price on an EV and won’t be the last.

So well done to NavyDiver for being an early adopter and sharing your experience. And well done to goingbush for showing what can be done with an old vehicle as well.

But the EV version is still twice the price of the equivalent petrol version - so it's not really bringing the price down, it's just that MG's are a cheap Chinese brand, so I would say that MG have a cheaper offering in EV's - but they do in the petrol market too so it isn't really an argument that this makes them affordable - someone who has $23K to spend on a car can have a shiny new MG if that's what they want - they may love to get the EV version but that's a bridge too far.

[DiscoDB]

But they are not targeting someone who has $23K to buy the cheapest new car they can afford. They are targeting someone who has $50K to buy a SUV they don’t need.

And as the take up increase, the entry prices come down.

People used to pay a large premium just for a diesel, they would even pay a further premium for an automatic.

[NavyDiver]

So all you need is about 15 years' worth of services and fuel to cover the difference in initial cost between an ICE car and the EV.

Please do not quote how "cheap" it is to own an EV when you are given subsidies by stupid governments promoting coal fired vehicles which embody slavery of children in their components.

About 80% of the population cannot afford EV purchase prices.ie those earning under 100K who are being screwed by government policy again .
Regards PhilipA

The many lower cost Evs about to flood the market might change the numbers very quickly except for those who tow or do 500+ km per day of course. Fuel cost for ev is 1/5th of my sons ULP cost and his car is not a guzzler. Noting of course it is very likely we well see dumping of cars not able to be sold else where here in Australia.

FBT free salary sacrifice is another bit

Slavery of children Phillip? You mean for cobalt perhaps? Agree that is a concern for some batteries and the DRC!


MIA CULPA- glasses on - The Bill was $260 for the 40,000 km service

PS not suggesting anyone should be made to buy a ICE or EV myself.

EDIT- 15 years????????? NO WAY I know a few years service costs on my D3s and the several thousand litres of diesel would easily pay for my EV in less than 3 years in full. It of course cannot tow the boat or drive to Perth in 3 days or less :)

[Homestar]

The many lower cost Evs about to flood the market might change the numbers very quickly except for those who tow or do 500+ km per day of course. Fuel cost for ev is 1/5th of my sons ULP cost and his car is not a guzzler. Noting of course it is very likely we well see dumping of cars not able to be sold else where here in Australia.

FBT free salary sacrifice is another bit

Slavery of children Phillip? You mean for cobalt perhaps? Agree that is a concern for some batteries and the DRC!


MIA CULPA- glasses on - The Bill was $260 for the 40,000 km service

PS not suggesting anyone should be made to buy a ICE or EV myself.

EDIT- 15 years????????? NO WAY I know a few years service costs on my D3s and the several thousand litres of diesel would easily pay for my EV in less than 3 years in full. It of course cannot tow the boat or drive to Perth in 3 days or less :)

What low cost options are coming and at what price point? I’ve heard this wheeled out dozens of times but never seen any proof anything ‘cheap’ is coming. Lithium batteries are increasing in price month on month at the moment so I can’t see how we’re going to get a $25K EV that matches in any way a small city petrol runabout - I’m not being negative and I’m all ears if there’s something out there to prove me wrong - I just think saying ‘cheaper EV’s are coming’ is like saying ‘more honest politicians are coming’

Power prices set to rise 30% this Winter as well and almost no charging infrastructure outside the City. I can’t charge an EV at home (parked on the road - no other option) or at work (work carpark with no access to power) so not sure how I could make one work - range isn’t an issue at all for me but too many other things are - Price, where to charge it and resale value being the main ones.

I’ve just ordered an ICE to replace current ICE - changeover value to go to new top spec dual cab is under $30K so hopefully in a few years they’ll be something other than this I can try but not holding my breath.

[PhilipA]

EDIT- 15 years????????? NO WAY I know a few years service costs on my D3s and the several thousand litres of diesel would easily pay for my EV in less than 3 years in full. It of course cannot tow the boat or drive to Perth in 3 days or less
I don't really want to make this an epic but you are comparing apples and oranges.
The cost of a comparable small caris nothing like that of an EV.
Let's take my own example.
2019 Honda Jazz with 12KK cost $ 13,000 in Sept 2019.
expected resale in 10 years maybe $5000.
fuel about $100 per month or $1200 per year= 12000
services twice yearly at $210 or $420 per year=4200.( and like many of us poor people I now do my own servicing so this is only $200 per year using synthetic oil)
Total cost for 10years $24000
Range 500Km on highway time to fill 5minutes.

MG EV cost $49000 services say 1000 in 10 years. Resalle value zero.
Total cost $50000 plus electricity say $30 per month.
I have ignored tyres ,though EVs are generally harder on tyres than a comparable car as they are heavier.
I have also ignore Km charge which will have to come in everywhere if passed by the high court. if not there will be some other tax.

My main objection is that EVs are a subsidy program for the rich. The poor as detailed above can only dream of an EV, while paying fuel excise, registration, etc. in place of EVs.
Regards PhilipA
PS a friend's son bought an Ionic 6 and sold it in two weeks due to his frustration at being in queus for recharging. "Recharge Rage" may become a new category of rage.

[Homestar]

I think expecting any new MG to be worth more than scrap value (ICE or EV) after 10 years is wishful thinking IMO… [emoji56][emoji6]

[NavyDiver]

I think expecting any new MG to be worth more than scrap value (ICE or EV) after 10 years is wishful thinking IMO… [emoji56][emoji6]

May be- noted the toyota pius unexpected million km taxis in Darwin several years ago and the ITP Renewables’ Battery Test Centre 6 year cycling simulation of more than 10 years use ( residential batteries) This report is not verified Toyota Prius Taxi Logs More Than 600,000 Miles; Batteries Last, Apparently (Video) (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099135_toyota-prius-taxi-logs-more-than-600000-miles-batteries-last-apparently-video)

Not suggesting any of these are likely in Australia but some are scheduled https://evplugchargers.com/the-15-cheapest-electric-cars-you-can-buy-in-europ/
The 100% EV FIAT 500 – from 20.492 EUROS is about 30k AUD
184657
Not that some of us would down size that far perhaps[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

Scrap value of a 10 year old car is always going to be interesting. The lithium cost per kg is about $35. cobalt price per kg $236 and manganese price per kg $49?

Quick google suggested. "A typical EV battery has about 8 kilograms of lithium, 14 kilograms of cobalt, and 20 kilograms of manganese, although this can often be much more depending on the battery size – a Tesla Model S' battery, for example, contains around [B]62.6 kg (138 pounds) of lithium."

Lithium Batteries are recyclable (CSIRO on that (https://www.csiro.au/en/research/technology-space/energy/energy-in-the-circular-economy/battery-recycling) )

As stated buy what you want, what you can afford to run and service. I am still waiting for my Hydrogen towing 4wd long range easy to refuel beast of course. This is a "While I am Waiting" thread only

PSST I think my Lada is still running now- that shocks me- SOOO much rust

[PhilipA]

May be- noted the toyota pius unexpected million km taxis in Darwin several years ago and the ITP Renewables’ Battery Test Centre 6 year cycling simulation of more than 10 years use ( residential batteries) This report is not verified Toyota Prius Taxi Logs More Than 600,000 Miles; Batteries Last, Apparently (Video) (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099135_toyota-prius-taxi-logs-more-than-600000-miles-batteries-last-apparently-video)
Prius does not have lithium batteries.
They have nickel metal hydride.
Regards PhilipA

[DiscoDB]

The poor as detailed above can only dream of an EV.

And probably smart to just keep dreaming - guaranteed way for a poor person to stay poor is to buy a new car. Buying any new car for personal use is probably the worse financial decision anyone can make.

Now buying a classic car and converting to EV - that sounds more interesting. The RRC (or even a D2) would be my personal choice for an EV conversion when DIY kit prices become more affordable.

[4bee]

I don't really want to make this an epic but you are comparing apples and oranges.
The cost of a comparable small caris nothing like that of an EV.
Let's take my own example.
2019 Honda Jazz with 12KK cost $ 13,000 in Sept 2019.
expected resale in 10 years maybe $5000.
fuel about $100 per month or $1200 per year= 12000
services twice yearly at $210 or $420 per year=4200.( and like many of us poor people I now do my own servicing so this is only $200 per year using synthetic oil)
Total cost for 10years $24000
Range 500Km on highway time to fill 5minutes.

MG EV cost $49000 services say 1000 in 10 years. Resalle value zero.
Total cost $50000 plus electricity say $30 per month.
I have ignored tyres ,though EVs are generally harder on tyres than a comparable car as they are heavier.
I have also ignore Km charge which will have to come in everywhere if passed by the high court. if not there will be some other tax.

My main objection is that EVs are a subsidy program for the rich. The poor as detailed above can only dream of an EV, while paying fuel excise, registration, etc. in place of EVs.
Regards PhilipA
PS a friend's son bought an Ionic 6 and sold it in two weeks due to his frustration at being in queus for recharging. "Recharge Rage" may become a new category of rage.


Ah, but having a barney with 'er indoors before leaving home should negate the Charging Station Rage issue (either that or it could make it worse & guns come out of the glove box at the station) for a showdown. "Oi, I was here first **** off you)"..


Not helping am I?[bighmmm] :bat:[bigrolf]

[Homestar]

And probably smart to just keep dreaming - guaranteed way for a poor person to stay poor is to buy a new car. Buying any new car for personal use is probably the worse financial decision anyone can make.

Now buying a classic car and converting to EV - that sounds more interesting. The RRC (or even a D2) would be my personal choice for an EV conversion when DIY kit prices become more affordable.

If I had the means I’d convert my RRC to an EV - it would be a brilliant weekend runaround.

[PhilipA]

If I had the means I’d convert my RRC to an EV - it would be a brilliant weekend runaround.
There is a bloke in UK who will do it.
Cost is only $50K to 60K.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

There is a bloke in UK who will do it.
Cost is only $50K to 60K.
Regards PhilipA

I could do it - I just don’t have the dollerydoos…

[DiscoDB]

Several companies are also doing RRC conversions in Australia as well. The conversion itself is not that complicated, the stumbling block is the cost of the conversion kits and batteries.

Old Land Rovers and Range Rovers make a great platform for a conversion.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I find it pretty funny reading this. EV's are divisive.

IMHO when looked at objectively.. it's horses for courses. They aren't going to work for everyone (at least at this stage) - but they will work for many. If it won't work for you ... who cares! Enjoy whatever you drive.

As to cost.. I have a Model Y on order. They are like 72k driveaway. This is by far the most expensive car I've ever bought. But it's similar in size to the VW Toureg (at least inside anyway) and the entry level toureg is 95k DA. The base model Tiguan is just under 50 DA. But we need a bigger car as my kids are huge. That doesn't seem crazy out of the park to me. Yes there probably should be cheap small EV's but would anyone actually buy them? The base model Golf is now like 42k. Cars are expensive.

But will it do the job for us? Our Golf which it will replace just does city trips. The furtherest it ever goes is Caloundra once a year. In the 7 years we've owned it there was one trip where it might have done 400k in a day, but that's 1 in 7 years. Anything longer and we'll probably take the defender anyway. I doubt we'll ever have to charge out of the home. But if we do - I reckon we'll be ok. This car will never go to Fraser or the Simpson.

As to whether it will be worthless in ten years? Look I hate to be the one to break this to you all.. but most ICE vehicles are worthless in ten years. And most of them aren't going as good as when they were new either. If you don't want to loose money on a car - don't buy one. Cars are expensive. Transport is expensive.

Will it be working in ten years? I think the commentary on battery replacements are basically hysteria. Yes Nissan Leafs required battery replacements early and suffered massive degradation. But this is not the case with modern EV's. Even Teslas with NCA are reporting less than 10% degradation after 8 years and over 100k. I mean maybe the battery destruction fairy will visit all of them at 10 years and the batteries will become useless but that's not how it's looking at this point.

People need to realise - EV's are just cars but with a different drivetrain. My family is stoked. We will all be able to fit in the damn car, we'll never have to visit a petrol station again and won't have to pay for servicing just to support a dealer network.

[Homestar]

Work just sold 2 of its oldest vehicle - 10YO Hiluxs for $22K each - hardly worthless.

The 2 x SR5’s we just traded are 7YO and we got $35K each for those.

And don’t start on the oldest vehicle here - a 25 YO Land Cruiser - the businesses first car and will never be sold but we’ve been offered stupid money for that one as it has under 200KKM on it - but I wouldn’t want it nor drive it but there’s obviously plent stoopid people out there that would. [emoji16]

[DiscoDB]

And likewise Homestar - 10YO electric cars certainly won’t be worthless either. And definitely not in the current market.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Work just sold 2 of its oldest vehicle - 10YO Hiluxs for $22K each - hardly worthless.

The 2 x SR5’s we just traded are 7YO and we got $35K each for those.

And don’t start on the oldest vehicle here - a 25 YO Land Cruiser - the businesses first car and will never be sold but we’ve been offered stupid money for that one as it has under 200KKM on it - but I wouldn’t want it nor drive it but there’s obviously plent stoopid people out there that would. [emoji16]
That's not the norm. That's the 4x4 bubble playing out. My defender is worth more than I paid for it new 18 years ago. It was worth half what it is now in 2019.

It's not normal and it won't last. Sorry.

[JDNSW]

That's not the norm. That's the 4x4 bubble playing out. My defender is worth more than I paid for it new 18 years ago. It was worth half what it is now in 2019.

It's not normal and it won't last. Sorry.

Several years ago I sold my Citroen for the same as I paid for it 25 years earlier. It is not just four wheel drives.

And on four wheel drives, I could sell my 2a today for more than twice what I paid for it over thirty years ago, and probably get as much as I paid for my County thirty years ago.

[DiscoDB]

Just look at what people are asking for a 10 year old Nissan Leaf and most will still have the original battery.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Several years ago I sold my Citroen for the same as I paid for it 25 years earlier. It is not just four wheel drives.

And on four wheel drives, I could sell my 2a today for more than twice what I paid for it over thirty years ago, and probably get as much as I paid for my County thirty years ago.
How is that really relevant?

The 2a is considered a classic car. I have an old Lotus, it's probably worth 10 times what the original owner paid.

Driving around the city here, It's extremely rare to see classic cars being used for transport. Even if everyone wanted to use them to transport their families.. There aren't enough of them. Strawman.

[Homestar]

Just look at what people are asking for a 10 year old Nissan Leaf and most will still have the original battery.

Asking price is very different to actual selling price… [emoji56]

$70K for a new one, asking $12 to $16K for a 10YO one. Getting???

Ouch…

[PhilipA]

EVs would not be divisive if they were sold and taxed equally to ICE vehicles.

The evidence is in now that they are not better for the planet than ICE vehicles so why subsidise them?

Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

That's not the norm. That's the 4x4 bubble playing out. My defender is worth more than I paid for it new 18 years ago. It was worth half what it is now in 2019.

It's not normal and it won't last. Sorry.

Doesn’t matter if it does or doesn’t - just pointing out what we are currently getting after you said 10YO ICE vehicle are worth nothing. [emoji4]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

EVs would not be divisive if they were sold and taxed equally to ICE vehicles.

The evidence is in now that they are not better for the planet than ICE vehicles so why subsidise them?

Regards PhilipA
Hmmm... not taxed equally? We've been subsidising ICE vehicles in wild and creative ways since forever.

Utes beaut? Tax write-offs are carrying the hopes of Australia's recovery (https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/2021/06/11/utes-tax-write-offs/)

And the evidence? Really? If you want to believe that I'm sure you can find plenty to back you.

If you really want to do something for the environment then don't drive anything. The only green car trip.

Unfortunately most people are reluctant to give cars up. So an EV is somewhat better, and will continue to get better as the grid greens. Meanwhile your diesel will continue to emit 2.7KG of CO2 per litre, plus the overheads of exploration, mining, transport, refining which no one ever really accounts for....

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Asking price is very different to actual selling price… [emoji56]

$70K for a new one, asking $12 to $16K for a 10YO one. Getting???

Ouch…
It's going to be hard to find a 10yo leaf in Australia, considering there were only a handful imported. And they were and are a steaming pile of rubbish. In QLD they need replacement packs in as little as 30k. Hopeless.

[DiscoDB]

Asking price is very different to actual selling price… [emoji56]

$70K for a new one, asking $12 to $16K for a 10YO one. Getting???

Ouch…

With the current used car market - more like asking $16K to $22K on a vehicle that was $47K +ORC when new in 2012.

So even if selling for half this - not worthless by any measure but could be a good buy for someone wanting an affordable entry point into an EV that will just be used around town.

The point remains - yes the used car market is high at present, but electric vehicles do not become worthless after 10 years. You will also start to see companies offer aftermarket battery pack upgrades to even the older Leaf models which will give them another 10-15 years life.

[NavyDiver]

With the current used car market - more like asking $16K to $22K on a vehicle that was $47K +ORC when new in 2012.

So even if selling for half this - not worthless by any measure but could be a good buy for someone wanting an affordable entry point into an EV that will just be used around town.

The point remains - yes the used car market is high at present, but electric vehicles do not become worthless after 10 years. You will also start to see companies offer aftermarket battery pack upgrades to even the older Leaf models which will give them another 10-15 years life.
My Disco is over 13 years old now. It is still in what I feel is very very nice condition even with the 330000+ km on the car and 40+ on the replacement engine. The 2005 Disco (RIP) would still be in the garage if not for a big hail storm.

I was very keen to change the current Disco to EV with hydrogen as previously chatted about. Suspect that will be much easier inside 10 years alas a bit late for me.

I am going to sell the MG XS EV in a few months. The few for sale now are at silly high prices. I will be more than happy with a much more modest amount. With the Driving cost really being in MY case 1/5 of the Disco or less it would be nuts to hold it for the few times I really need the 4wd or towing capacity.

I appreciate some people cost are different of course. Saw a lot more Polestars about - the test Drive of one on Sunday was interesting. The newer model coming in a few months would be smarter to wait for as extras in current ones are included. It was like driving a OLD school volvo tank that went very quickly[biggrin]

[DiscoDB]

I am going to sell the MG XS EV in a few months. The few for sale now are at silly high prices. I will be more than happy with a much more modest amount. With the Driving cost really being in MY case 1/5 of the Disco or less it would be nuts to hold it for the few times I really need the 4wd or towing capacity.

Selling a car whilst prices are silly is no doubt a good time.

If your usage of the Disco is truly only a few times a year when you need the towing capacity, then sell it and just rent a 4wd when needed.

As you note, we are definitely more like 10 years away from when we will see an EV with good range, good towing capacity, and at a good price.

But the sales success of the F-150 Lightning in the US, the possibility of an electric version of the Ranger or Amarok, and the prospect of Solid State Batteries being a game changer all give me hope that within the next 10 years we are going to see some real interesting 4WD EV’s in the future.

[Homestar]

With the current used car market - more like asking $16K to $22K on a vehicle that was $47K +ORC when new in 2012.

So even if selling for half this - not worthless by any measure but could be a good buy for someone wanting an affordable entry point into an EV that will just be used around town.

The point remains - yes the used car market is high at present, but electric vehicles do not become worthless after 10 years. You will also start to see companies offer aftermarket battery pack upgrades to even the older Leaf models which will give them another 10-15 years life.

I could "ask" $40K for my old Jag and you could say a 1976 XJ6 is worth $40K - but it's not... [bigwhistle]

[NavyDiver]

I could "ask" $40K for my old Jag and you could say a 1976 XJ6 is worth $40K - but it's not... [bigwhistle]

Economically speaking what some one is prepared to pay is the price. Items selling 1000% + more than they cost when brand new is not that rare. Things selling for a faction of what they cost is also not rare[biggrin] Rather common really

The changes coming have always left "Stranded assets" behind in hands of people who think they got it Cheap :) My current and about to be new EV will be very much outdated IF solid state batteries and all the dozen plus battery gigafactories start output they loudly promise.

Noting of course Britishvolt. They are now apparently "Australia-based company Recharge Industries will take over collapsed battery maker Britishvolt after finalising a deal with administrators"

Gent up the road with several classic Lanndrovers is likely to appreciate them more than the $$$ they may or may not be worth.

My temporary wheels will be a new 2023 MG XS ev long range OR a MG4 ev long range. The latter is a rear wheel drive. The polestar test was for some one with more money than me who does not want a 4wd/3.5 tonne towing option

Slightly interested to note the MG4 has a 500kg tow rating.

Edit- PWC report on Gigafactories and raw materials is interesting (https://www.google.com/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjon8GluZH-AhV4T2wGHcG0AzgQFnoECCQQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pwc.com%2Fid%2Fen%2Fpublicat ions%2Fcips%2Fautomotive%2Fgigafactories-and-raw-materials.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1GViA2z7fQQHvrirj1AQMd)

[DiscoDB]

I could "ask" $40K for my old Jag and you could say a 1976 XJ6 is worth $40K - but it's not... [bigwhistle]

You could and you may be surprised what you do get for it - but even if you sold it for $4K it certainly is not worthless.

EV’s depreciate like all cars - but they don’t become worthless after 10 years. Battery life is proving to be better than expected with EV’s - especially if trickle charged and kept between 20-80% - with 12-15 years battery life now being expected if looked after correctly.

Like all used cars, a second hand EV can in fact be an excellent value purchase as long as the battery has not been abused.

And if you do plan to keep an EV for more than 12-15 years, then replacement batteries means you can keep that EV going for another 12-15 years. 200-250K km battery life and 400-500K km car life is proving to be easily achievable with EV’s if looked after.

[Homestar]

I’m sure all the Nissan Leaf owners with stuffed battery packs that are just out of warranty and an OEM that doesn’t care less and sends them a quote for $30K for a new battery on a car that cost $50K when new 5 years ago may disagree with you, but each to their own.

[DiscoDB]

Homestar - plenty of Disco owners would feel the same way with a $40K bill from LR to replace the 3.0 TDV6. Doesn’t mean most people had the same experience or a D4 becomes worthless because of the experience of the minority.

You are comparing a first generation battery technology and set up that is just not used anymore. Those early failures with the 2011-2012 Leafs were mostly in hot climates with a battery which had no cooling or active thermal management. Problems that have since be solved.

Was also a time when batteries cost 4-5 times more to make compared to what they cost today. Even a first generation Leaf can have its battery replaced for a lot less than what was paid 5 years ago.

You have been pushing the case for 3 years now that EVs become worthless after 7 years and 100,000kms and for this reason you should not buy.

It is just not true - just look at the used car market for 2014 Tesla’s to see how they hold value. 8 year old Tesla’s hold their values the same as an 8 year old Discovery and would be much cheaper to run and maintain.

[DiscoDB]

I like this following diagram which shows what to expect with EV battery life if set up and looked after correctly. The chart shows the upper range, whilst the lower range of expectations (which is typically what is guaranteed) is half this.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230405/5b85f756e450a90d777a7d713286e5d1.jpg

Ideally you want your battery management to keep in the 20%-80% change range for at least the first 150,000kms. Software updates then should start to limit the upper charging capacity to protect the battery life. By 225,000kms, you have lost the upper buffer capacity and the loss in driving range starts to fall off quicker.

Tesla owners report even better data and battery life expectancy than the chart above. Real user data collected by a group of 350 Tesla owners show on average they see less than 5% degradation over the first 75,000 kms, and around 10% battery degradation over the first 250,000kms.

Tesla batteries are expected to last at least 1500 charging cycles, and many owners expect the batteries to last up to 500,000kms which will probably out last the car. How you manage the charging cycles has a big influence on this.

The data does show you do get outliers that don’t get these results - superfast charging in hot climates is one likely explanation for this.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230405/256c295054374d87015d5628b06c7ead.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230405/176226a187cc0ab86eda75565463927e.jpg

Of course don’t expect these results from the first generation Nissan’s. They are at the other end of the spectrum and see much higher degradation rates. Teslas have a much more advanced battery management system, and use better technology. Even the humble MG ZS EV uses better technology and battery management than the first generation Nissan Leaf.

[Tombie]

I like this following diagram which shows what to expect with EV battery life if set up and looked after correctly. The chart shows the upper range, whilst the lower range of expectations (which is typically what is guaranteed) is half this.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230405/5b85f756e450a90d777a7d713286e5d1.jpg

Ideally you want your battery management to keep in the 20%-80% change range for at least the first 150,000kms. Software updates then should start to limit the upper charging capacity to protect the battery life. By 225,000kms, you have lost the upper buffer capacity and the loss in driving range starts to fall off quicker.

Tesla owners report even better data and battery life expectancy than the chart above. Real user data collected by a group of 350 Tesla owners show on average they see less than 5% degradation over the first 75,000 kms, and around 10% battery degradation over the first 250,000kms.

Tesla batteries are expected to last at least 1500 charging cycles, and many owners expect the batteries to last up to 500,000kms which will probably out last the car. How you manage the charging cycles has a big influence on this.

The data does show you do get outliers that don’t get these results - superfast charging in hot climates is one likely explanation for this.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230405/256c295054374d87015d5628b06c7ead.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230405/176226a187cc0ab86eda75565463927e.jpg

Of course don’t expect these results from the first generation Nissan’s. They are at the other end of the spectrum and see much higher degradation rates. Teslas have a much more advanced battery management system, and use better technology. Even the humble MG ZS EV uses better technology and battery management than the first generation Nissan Leaf.

When Apple started limiting battery life as you describe the public screamed blue bloody murder!

If my ICE vehicle de-rated 5% in 75,000km I’d be furious.

:)

[loanrangie]

I think expecting any new MG to be worth more than scrap value (ICE or EV) after 10 years is wishful thinking IMO… [emoji56][emoji6]Even straight off the showroom, why people buy these ****boxes is beyond me.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So, how long does a Tesla battery last in Australia? I think the best answer you can give is: long enough.

How Long Does A Tesla Battery Last In Australia? - CleanTechnica (https://cleantechnica.com/2022/11/25/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last-in-australia/)

[goingbush]

When Apple started limiting battery life as you describe the public screamed blue bloody murder!

If my ICE vehicle de-rated 5% in 75,000km I’d be furious.

:)

My wife bought a new ICE Renault Craptur in 2015 for about 28K , 7 year warranty is up and its not even done 15,000 km . Its current book value is $7,000 - $12,000 , Thats de-rated by about 75%

[goingbush]

Going to be Glut of ICE cars on the market very soon

Legacy auto faces disaster in China with unsellable cars as pollution crunch looms (https://thedriven.io/2023/03/30/legacy-auto-faces-disaster-in-china-with-unsellable-cars-as-pollution-crunch-looms/)

[Tombie]

My wife bought a new ICE Renault Craptur in 2015 for about 28K , 7 year warranty is up and its not even done 15,000 km . Its current book value is $7,000 - $12,000 , Thats de-rated by about 75%

I’m talking power output / range.

Can see where you’re going!

[DiscoDB]

When Apple started limiting battery life as you describe the public screamed blue bloody murder!

If my ICE vehicle de-rated 5% in 75,000km I’d be furious.

:)

For sure you would be furious - that is because an ICE is not powered by a lithium battery. But you know that - you are just mocking EV’s. [emoji48]

It would be the same as me saying EV owners would be furious if they were only offered a 100,000km warranty if they had a motor that is prone to catastrophic failure. [emoji849][emoji33][emoji23]

[DiscoDB]

Another viewpoint on expected battery life collected from real data gathered from 15,000 EV owners.

New Study: How Long Do Electric Car Batteries Last? (https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last)

All the data points to an expected 15-20 year useable life for EV batteries. As always, there will be outliers that fail early - but there are steps that can be easily taken to maximise the battery life.

[Tombie]

For sure you would be furious - that is because an ICE is not powered by a lithium battery. But you know that - you are just mocking EV’s. [emoji48]

It would be the same as me saying EV owners would be furious if they were only offered a 100,000km warranty if they had a motor that is prone to catastrophic failure. [emoji849][emoji33][emoji23]

Not at all.

With EV tech, it’s tough enough to get an accurate and predictable range as it is. I certainly cannot accept a further range reduction as the vehicle ages.

Imagine buying anything that becomes 25% less useful in a few years. Depreciation is different, loss of functionality is a very different matter - and as such, really, these products should be discounted accordingly.

[Tombie]

Another viewpoint on expected battery life collected from real data gathered from 15,000 EV owners.

New Study: How Long Do Electric Car Batteries Last? (https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last)

All the data points to an expected 15-20 year useable life for EV batteries. As always, there will be outliers that fail early - but there are steps that can be easily taken to maximise the battery life.

The warranties are awful…

Guaranteed to retain 70% of capacity for 8 years

That equates to a loss of 180km on a 600km rated EV.
That would make “my” EV unable to do the most simple and common of trips.
And there would be nothing I could do about it as it’s within “spec”.


The seeming acceptance of people of this ****house, sub-standard (current) product type because “I won’t need all of it” is insane.

[DiscoDB]

Tombie - just because the technology (or warranties) won’t work for you, doesn’t mean it can’t work for the millions of cars on our roads that don’t need the range. I suspect there are plenty of top selling ICE’s that would not be practical for you as well, or last long if used like you need. But for most people their car usage is nothing like yours or most on this forum.

My wife’s car never does more than 60km in a single day and there would be millions like this. All perfect candidates for an EV that can be used for 15+ years in the 20-80% battery capacity range and never be impacted by battery degradation because the full 100% range is never needed or used. The more important number that most cars need in cities is the 20% capacity range. An EV with a 250-300km range is all that most city runabouts need.

Eventually EV batteries will either just be another consumable - like tyres - you get the best performance when new and replace when worn, or we will get solid state batteries that see minimal battery degradation with double the energy intensity and range available today.

The future for EV’s is looking very promising and we are within a decade of seeing some big changes. The mass produced EV’s of today are starting the same technological shift that the horseless carriages made over 100 years ago.

But right now, an EV for the wife, and a 5.0V8 D4 or V8SC RRS for me would be the best of both worlds (the D3 is safe for now - although it may become a candidate for a twin motor EV conversion one day when the TDV6 reaches the end of its expected life).

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The warranties are awful…

Guaranteed to retain 70% of capacity for 8 years

That equates to a loss of 180km on a 600km rated EV.
That would make “my” EV unable to do the most simple and common of trips.
And there would be nothing I could do about it as it’s within “spec”.


The seeming acceptance of people of this ****house, sub-standard (current) product type because “I won’t need all of it” is insane.
The thing is it's not happening though. People are not seeing anything like this in real life. Apart from the owners of Nissan Leafs that is.

Yes the warranties aren't the best but this is not an EV only thing.

[scarry]

The thing is it's not happening though. People are not seeing anything like this in real life. Apart from the owners of Nissan Leafs that is.

Yes the warranties aren't the best but this is not an EV only thing.

But there are not many Evs around compared to other types,and most are only a couple of years old.

The average age of vehicles in many countries is well over 10 yrs,some well over 15,so it will be interesting to see what happens when they get to that sort of age and older.

[Tombie]

Tombie - just because the technology (or warranties) won’t work for you, doesn’t mean it can’t work for the millions of cars on our roads that don’t need the range. I suspect there are plenty of top selling ICE’s that would not be practical for you as well, or last long if used like you need. But for most people their car usage is nothing like yours or most on this forum.

My wife’s car never does more than 60km in a single day and there would be millions like this. All perfect candidates for an EV that can be used for 15+ years in the 20-80% battery capacity range and never be impacted by battery degradation because the full 100% range is never needed or used. The more important number that most cars need in cities is the 20% capacity range. An EV with a 250-300km range is all that most city runabouts need.

Eventually EV batteries will either just be another consumable - like tyres - you get the best performance when new and replace when worn, or we will get solid state batteries that see minimal battery degradation with double the energy intensity and range available today.

The future for EV’s is looking very promising and we are within a decade of seeing some big changes. The mass produced EV’s of today are starting the same technological shift that the horseless carriages made over 100 years ago.

But right now, an EV for the wife, and a 5.0V8 D4 or V8SC RRS for me would be the best of both worlds (the D3 is safe for now - although it may become a candidate for a twin motor EV conversion one day when the TDV6 reaches the end of its expected life).

I agree wholeheartedly with your “all they need” statement, it however misses the point in consumer vs supplier.

Even if I lived in a city, and my daily use was 20% of the vehicles quoted new range - if that asset then goes on to be only a portion of what I purchased - I would be very annoyed.

That’s not acceptable, you don’t sell a 100% and then reduce it to 70% and call it acceptable.

As for EVs being the solution - they aren’t - they’re a stop gap trend - and not a globally friendly one. I’m privileged to see some real world mining / environmental data and the numbers just don’t stack up (ignoring human rights abuse, that’s another whole kettle of fish)

[101RRS]

Just watched a YouTube vid where they drove 7 EVs in convoy along major roads. They all started at 100% and drove until the car stopped.

The best mile/kwh was a Tesla Y? which got 3.9 miles/kwh and 271 miles range.

What was interesting was that they all only around 80% of their advertised range - not such a big deal but maybe manufacturers need to put some standard paramenters around their claims - such as temp at 25c, no wind and maybe a speed range so comparisons can be made.

[DiscoDB]

Just watched a YouTube vid where they drove 7 EVs in convoy along major roads. They all started at 100% and drove until the car stopped.

The best mile/kwh was a Tesla Y? which got 3.9 miles/kwh and 271 miles range.

What was interesting was that they all only around 80% of their advertised range - not such a big deal but maybe manufacturers need to put some standard paramenters around their claims - such as temp at 25c, no wind and maybe a speed range so comparisons can be made.

Yes there is a standard - all done under controlled conditions for exactly the reasons you note.

The most commonly stated values used are the WLTP - Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Program which is mandated in Europe.

Real world testing tend to show the WLTP values are about 10-20% too high.

Similar to what is often seen with fuel consumption comparisons. My D3 also gets about 10-20% less range than the official stated fuel consumption.

The Electric Vehicle Database publishes both WLTP values and expected Real ranges based on different operating environments for all EV’s available in Europe.

Compare electric vehicles - EV Database (https://ev-database.org/)

And as Tombie will point out - these values are based on 100%-0% range when the battery is new. So factor in the expected degradation over the intended ownership period of the vehicle.

The optimised range would be to only use 80%-20% capacity (60% DoD) to ensure no loss of this optimised range over the first 10-15 years or 150,000-225,000kms. Or just use approximately half the WLTP value to determine if the optimised range is suitable for regular use.

And if your typical daily usage can be managed with just a 20% DoD averaged around 50% (i.e. just use 60%-40%) then the battery should be expected to outlast the car.

[DiscoDB]

I agree wholeheartedly with your “all they need” statement, it however misses the point in consumer vs supplier.

Even if I lived in a city, and my daily use was 20% of the vehicles quoted new range - if that asset then goes on to be only a portion of what I purchased - I would be very annoyed.

That’s not acceptable, you don’t sell a 100% and then reduce it to 70% and call it acceptable.

As for EVs being the solution - they aren’t - they’re a stop gap trend - and not a globally friendly one. I’m privileged to see some real world mining / environmental data and the numbers just don’t stack up (ignoring human rights abuse, that’s another whole kettle of fish)

All about education and awareness. You do your own research and decide what is best for you.

Fortunately no one is forcing you to buy an EV - but doesn’t mean others shouldn’t if that is what they want and it suits their needs. And I don’t see any EV manufacturers hiding the fact that batteries will degrade over the life of the car.

The mining industry in particular should really benefit from the EV transition. Not so good for the oil industry.

If this still makes you furious - start planning what your end of the Fossil Fuel Age car will be. For me I feel it has to be a petrol V8 to pay true homage to the end of what has been an exciting era in motoring history.

[NavyDiver]

All about education and awareness. You do your own research and decide what is best for you.

Fortunately no one is forcing you to buy an EV - but doesn’t mean others shouldn’t if that is what they want and it suits their needs. And I don’t see any EV manufacturers hiding the fact that batteries will degrade over the life of the car.

The mining industry in particular should really benefit from the EV transition. Not so good for the oil industry.

If this still makes you furious - start planning what your end of the Fossil Fuel Age car will be. For me I feel it has to be a petrol V8 to pay true homage to the end of what has been an exciting era in motoring history.

A V12 perhaps? DB11 v12[bigwhistle]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nf4uTAA5_I

Back to EVs for a minute. (Drove the Disco on the weekend [biggrin]) Dealer re longer range replacement EV I am getting said a fleet buyer was taking over 100 here! We have Air tickets booked pre covid trip delayed is now taking family for a holiday. EV car hire listed but not one available! (Brisbane Airport)


I have booked a cheap manual ICE car. My better half cannot drive a manual so might be grumpy! Honestly it is hard to book any hire car !

Something interesting learned when trying to book the EV hire. You can return a EV with any state of charge remaining and pay nothing more. My cheap ICE hire has to returned at the same fuel level or I have to pay $4 per litre!!! [bigwhistle]

I knew EVs are 1/5 the cost to run as a ICE. The FREE charging for Hired EV via SIXT Rent a Car | Truck Hire, Van and Car Rental (https://www.sixt.com.au/) which seem to be a NRMA company and also offered 25% off for me (RACV member)

The free ev hire car charging they offered was via Chargefox ev charging network.

Alas I have to pay for fuel again[bigrolf]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

All about education and awareness. You do your own research and decide what is best for you.

Fortunately no one is forcing you to buy an EV - but doesn’t mean others shouldn’t if that is what they want and it suits their needs. And I don’t see any EV manufacturers hiding the fact that batteries will degrade over the life of the car.

The mining industry in particular should really benefit from the EV transition. Not so good for the oil industry.

If this still makes you furious - start planning what your end of the Fossil Fuel Age car will be. For me I feel it has to be a petrol V8 to pay true homage to the end of what has been an exciting era in motoring history.

I've got mine planned.. an Ineos Grenadier. [bigsmile]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

But there are not many Evs around compared to other types,and most are only a couple of years old.

The average age of vehicles in many countries is well over 10 yrs,some well over 15,so it will be interesting to see what happens when they get to that sort of age and older.
Yes - Ev's are really quite new and quite scarce on Australias roads. Australia for various reasons is a looooong way behind some other countries on EV adoption so they are still scarce here.

Do remember though that in many other countries they do have a fair number of them, and some are approaching the 10 years (I know it's not hugely old) but some of them do have massive k's on them. Because of the minimal fuel costs there are a number what have seen serious commercial use and have big k's. Apparently there is a model S in Byron surrounds with 600k on it and only about 10% battery degradation.

People on this forum tend to want to compare EV's to 4x4 which tend to be quite long lived. But they are more "normal" car replacements - and as I've mentioned before these cars don't tend to live to very old ages. I think that's more where EV's will go.. the battery will remain reasonable and useful for the life of the car. Then .. like normal cars they will have some fender bender and won't be worth repairing. It's possible that the recycling value of the batteries may play into the end of life for these vehicles more than we see now for ICE vehicles.

[DiscoDB]

I've got mine planned.. an Ineos Grenadier. [bigsmile]

Nice one - also gives a nod to the original Defender.

But doesn’t scream I want to enjoy every last drop of fuel while I can.

[DiscoDB]

Going off topic for a moment - if you recall the RAM 1500 TRX advert which shows the neighbour helping unload the back of the Ute and asks - “so you had to get a Hemi V8” - followed by the owner showing off the performance of the Ram on gravel roads and sand dunes. The ad was all shot off road and never exceeded 80kph.

The ad has been pulled by the Advertising Board after the president of an Australian 4x4 club lodged a “very lengthy complaint” that the ad depicted hoon driving, risky behaviour, and environmental damage.

OMG!

[Tombie]

Looking at some data sets, I’d say urban EV battery life will be significantly better than fringe or long range used units.

A lot of this is driven by not requiring “Supercharging” which significantly impacts battery longevity.

So if you just use 20% of your battery and slowly restore it, yes it may well last longer and retain capacity.

[DiscoDB]

Agreed totally Tombie. [emoji41]

The right approach would be to encourage EV usage for urban / short trips - as done by the vast majority of cars in every city. But then retain and support ICE usage for regional / rural / mining / long distance driving / goods transportation outside of the cities.

Just have to get the balance right without totally eliminating ICE’s. This is what I expect will happen in many countries outside of Europe.

And significantly less Nox emitting cars in our cities can only be a healthy thing.

[NavyDiver]

Looking at some data sets, I’d say urban EV battery life will be significantly better than fringe or long range used units.

A lot of this is driven by not requiring “Supercharging” which significantly impacts battery longevity.

So if you just use 20% of your battery and slowly restore it, yes it may well last longer and retain capacity.

not sure on that. You would know better than most of course.

On the supercharging front we are really slow anyhow.

"It took only a few weeks between launching the site and including it in the Non-Tesla Supercharging Pilot.

Tesla's first V4 Supercharging station (16 stalls), located in Harderwijk in the Netherlands, is now open to non-Tesla electric vehicles.
Tesla (https://insideevs.com/tesla/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) initially launched the station for Tesla EVs only on March 15 (https://insideevs.com/news/657445/tesla-first-v4-supercharger-now-open/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) (see video of charging here (https://insideevs.com/news/657539/tesla-v4-supercharging-session-experience/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed)), saying that "soon" it will welcome all EVs.
Opening the station for non-Tesla electric vehicles is the main point of the introduction of the V4 stalls, which are equipped with longer cables to reach charging inlets in different locations (https://insideevs.com/news/655277/tesla-v4-superchargers-europe-longercable/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed).
We assume that the initial tests were completed, and on April 8, Tesla announced that the site is open for all EVs - of course, only those compatible with the CCS Combo 2 (CCS2) connector, which isused in Europe for fast charging."

Not likely to see that here in OZ as I suspect Tesla was told do it or else by EU or Netherlands?

Not a issue for me soon. I will be very happy to bypass the almost always empty Tesla faster chargers in Colac. Blow them a raspberry will be assured[bigrolf]

FYI 350 kwh at Torquay and Ballarat are better than Tesla V4 anyway - not that my car can charge at that rate. "Tesla Supercharger V4’s design has been revealed as part of the construction plans of a new station being deployed in Danvers, Massachusetts. It’s another clean design that is reminiscent of previous chargers.
Tesla’s Supercharger technology has evolved greatly over the years, going from 90 kW of capacity to 250 kW. But when it comes to the design, it hasn’t evolved a lot."

I can use the 350kwh chargers my current car maxes out at below 150kWh ish. The longer range one I am getting still seems to have similar low 150 limit "The 51kWh version can be charged from 10 to 80 per cent in 52 minutes using a 50kW fast charger, and 39 minutes with a 150kW charger. Meanwhile, the Long Range 64kWh model takes 60 minutes and 35 minutes respectively on the same rates, indicating the lesser version has a lower charging capacity that isn’t detailed in the specifications table."

That said 80% faster charge at 150kWh rate on the 64kWh battery will get a lot furterh a lot quickr than 80% on my current 42kWh battery which takes almost as long to get from 80% to 100% as it takes to get to the 80%[bighmmm]

Happy to be slow most of the time of course. If its sunny a very slow charge is totally free here or at work[biggrin]

[DiscoDB]

Out of interest NavyDiver - what is your normal charging habits and how much DoD (Depth of Discharge) do you typically use between recharging?

Do you often charge above 80% or only when needed for extended trips?

And at what rate do you typically recharge at?

[spudfan]

Man warns drivers to ‘think twice’ before going electric
Man warns drivers to ‘think twice’ before going electric (https://thepremierdaily.com/think-twice-before-getting-electric-vehicle/?L6Al=LNzn8I)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Man warns drivers to ‘think twice’ before going electric
Man warns drivers to ‘think twice’ before going electric (https://thepremierdaily.com/think-twice-before-getting-electric-vehicle/?L6Al=LNzn8I)
That's quality journalism right there. Right up with "Man on reddit isn't happy with his new car".

If people are unhappy with their EV's - they will struggle to sell them. Just like any car.

But it's not panning out that way. Once people have an EV they seem to enjoy them.

I talked a lady at the vet last week. "So that's your red Tesla - do you like it?"

She replied "I'm not a car person but that's the best car I have ever owned". Maybe we can send that to the journo above?

[NavyDiver]

Out of interest NavyDiver - what is your normal charging habits and how much DoD (Depth of Discharge) do you typically use between recharging?

Do you often charge above 80% or only when needed for extended trips?

And at what rate do you typically recharge at?

Home charge is just under 6kW per hour. It could be 7kWh - sparky was a bit worried the 3 phase circuit which is also on my Heat pumps might stress out. I have never tested the theory as over night is more than enough off peak power. A manual power regulator was added to adjust if needed. When using solar I tend to just use the 2kWh wall plug. I plug in every few days when its below 50km range.

MG suggested using a CCS charger monthly to help the battery cells balance. The BMS is possibly not as smart as another brand here!

I am not fussed about the 80% bit with the current 42kWh battery. The Fast or Slow charge rates drop off significantly at about 90% not 80% on the current one I have. That was time consuming when I was pushing the cars range limits to get to and from the chemotherapy. A long slow charge did help range in the poor high speed range of the current MG XS. When hitting 100% in about an hour at racv Torquay (205km) or Ballarat (201km). The 100kph run to Port fairy was at the edge of my 'poor' range limit. A 7kWh charge in Port Fairy left 5-10% on the way back. It might be prevailing winds as well. South Westerly wind is the normal here more so near the coast of course!

The replacement car will have an app to control charge limits. The current one does not. The other brand here has that already.

Charging if parking at home makes it all very easy and cheap. The limited charging facilities in many remote areas, faulty chargers and peak demand will be a issue if pushing range constraints as I was. Its clear you can Drive around Australia if NOT in a hurry :)

[spudfan]

There is always two sides to every story. Over here there is a big government push on EVs. I don't agree with all the incentives given to people to buy them at the expense of other non EV users. I wonder how many would be sold without the incentives? I paid government taxes on my Defenders which they accepted graciously and I pay the road tax every year. Stick the EVs out there without the tax breaks and see how they sell. You will soon see how "green" people are. The stated range on the EVs is purely a desk top work out so they should be tested with the heater on, wipers on and other things usually used by drivers then the range stated. I know people with an EV and that is the gripe, they do not know how far to trust it distance wise.

[Xtreme]

Six years ago when I drove over the Gotthard Pass I witnessed 112 EV's on a rally through the Swiss Alps. Vehicles ranged from push bikes right through to a Tesla Roadster that was on the last few days of an 80 day around the world trip - he didn't include Australia though!

My Favourite - I followed him down the northern side of the pass (a straighter run than the southern side) and was battling to keep up with him.

https://www.aulro.com/app/data/1459/medium/IMG_00942.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/app/data/1459/medium/IMG_00682.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/app/data/1459/medium/IMG_00422.jpg

[DiscoDB]

Cheers NavyDiver.

You do sound like you are truly pushing the limits of that MG. Well done for doing this as well.

With your replacement having a larger battery and better range, I am sure life will be easier. Victoria is probably one of the best states to have an EV as everything is so close, and it never gets too hot.

As you acknowledge the MG battery technology and BMS won’t be as good as say the Tesla - so if you are planning to keep longer, do consider limiting how often you charge above 80% and minimise the DoD between recharges when it makes sense to do so.

Of course when you need the extended range - fully charge it, use it, and enjoy it!

Keep posting updates on your experience. You have definitely been bitten by the EV bug.

[NavyDiver]

Six years ago when I drove over the Gotthard Pass I witnessed 112 EV's on a rally through the Swiss Alps. Vehicles ranged from push bikes right through to a Tesla Roadster that was on the last few days of an 80 day around the world trip - he didn't include Australia though!

My Favourite - I followed him down the northern side of the pass (a straighter run than the southern side) and was battling to keep up with him.

https://www.aulro.com/app/data/1459/medium/IMG_00942.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/app/data/1459/medium/IMG_00682.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/app/data/1459/medium/IMG_00422.jpg

Australia does have a cool EV race sun power only [biggrin]

World Solar Challenge 2023 (https://worldsolarchallenge.org/)

[101RRS]

My RRS is now 16 years old and am thinking of a replacement in the near future, though it is still running perfectly reliably. The reality is that it gets used mainly around town with the occasional long trip and offroad trip which again it does really well.

In my car stable I also have my 101 and am acquiring a classic jag at the moment.

So with the 101 able to cover offroad stuff and the jag being able to cover long trips I really do not need a "new" RRS to just run around town.

With the Tesla 3 now the most popular car in Australia in the medium sedan sector (where the Camry rained supreme) I am thinking something like than may be a new replacement. I have noticed that when I see cars on the road around Canberra, the most single model does seem to be the Tesla 3.

So when it comes time to sell the RRS I am most likely to go for an EV like a Tesla 3 or Y. I can still use this for driving within 300km of home and longer if not in a hurry. I will have the new jag on Historic Concessional registration so that aspect will be cheap but as it is a V12 more expensive to drive but useful when you need to go places quickly without the two stops to recharge.

Unfortunately, while EV tech is not new, modern EV tech is and many people want to make it be able to do every thing now. I think they are great town vehicles and Sunday country drive vehicles - even further if you are prepared for longer trips and time to charge - range as such is not an issue now, it is availability of charging points and time to charge.

I think Hydrogen cell vehicles will eventually be the way to go but for now I think an EV (not a MG) will be my next vehicle for everyday use.

Garry

[Captain_Rightfoot]

My RRS is now 16 years old and am thinking of a replacement in the near future, though it is still running perfectly reliably. The reality is that it gets used mainly around town with the occasional long trip and offroad trip which again it does really well.

In my car stable I also have my 101 and am acquiring a classic jag at the moment.

So with the 101 able to cover offroad stuff and the jag being able to cover long trips I really do not need a "new" RRS to just run around town.

With the Tesla 3 now the most popular car in Australia in the medium sedan sector (where the Camry rained supreme) I am thinking something like than may be a new replacement. I have noticed that when I see cars on the road around Canberra, the most single model does seem to be the Tesla 3.

So when it comes time to sell the RRS I am most likely to go for an EV like a Tesla 3 or Y. I can still use this for driving within 300km of home and longer if not in a hurry. I will have the new jag on Historic Concessional registration so that aspect will be cheap but as it is a V12 more expensive to drive but useful when you need to go places quickly without the two stops to recharge.

Unfortunately, while EV tech is not new, modern EV tech is and many people want to make it be able to do every thing now. I think they are great town vehicles and Sunday country drive vehicles - even further if you are prepared for longer trips and time to charge - range as such is not an issue now, it is availability of charging points and time to charge.

I think Hydrogen cell vehicles will eventually be the way to go but for now I think an EV (not a MG) will be my next vehicle for everyday use.

Garry
Good on you. People in here need to come to the realisation that while some people need rugged 4x4 with 1000k range on diesel that many people do not. For them an EV might be a feasible option. Maybe as one car in the garage anyway.

I'm the same.. I have a defender for big loads and long trips. And soon and EV for the stuff around the local area. There is even a classic down there for some fun.

Anyway.. FYI the reason why the Model 3 is so common is it was really the first proper EV which was offered in Australia in any numbers. Tesla took a few years to get the local supply of Model Y sorted for Australia. I think the first deliveries were only just over 6 months ago. If you Like the sedan format they have great performance and range and are a good bit cheaper than the Y. People do prefer hatches though and I expect that the Y will overtake the 3 in the coming year.

[101RRS]

There is a lot to like about the Tesla but the 3 things I dont like is the body style when it is in dark colours, the central display where more modern designed EVs have a traditional car management display in front of the driver and lastly the "moon" roof where even UK drivers complain about the heat and sun - though to be fair this does seem to be fitted to many new cars these days.

It is a shame that GM stopped all EV development back in the late 90s because if they did not, EV development would be at least 10 years more advanced than it is now, and if Tesla had not come along EV development would have still been as it was when GM closed its EV programme in the 90s.

On a related but non EV battery issue, why do people fit hi tech Tesla car style batteries to their house solar. Tesla style batteries are great where hi power, low weight and compact batteries are required like in a car - however this is not needed in a house - cheaper, heavier, AGM style batteries would work just as well and save a motza.

[Saitch]

A bloke pulled up beside us in an Hyundai EV. I don't know what model, but it looked a bit sharper than a Tesla, in my opinion.
Looked sedanish, but may have been a hatchback. Too short a time to look.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

There is a lot to like about the Tesla but the 3 things I dont like is the body style when it is in dark colours, the central display where more modern designed EVs have a traditional car management display in front of the driver and lastly the "moon" roof where even UK drivers complain about the heat and sun - though to be fair this does seem to be fitted to many new cars these days.

It is a shame that GM stopped all EV development back in the late 90s because if they did not, EV development would be at least 10 years more advanced than it is now, and if Tesla had not come along EV development would have still been as it was when GM closed its EV programme in the 90s.

On a related but non EV battery issue, why do people fit hi tech Tesla car style batteries to their house solar. Tesla style batteries are great where hi power, low weight and compact batteries are required like in a car - however this is not needed in a house - cheaper, heavier, AGM style batteries would work just as well and save a motza.

There are really only three proper EV's available in Aus at this point. The Tesla 3/Y, the Ioniq 5/6, and the BYD Atto. I understand your concern about the central display. For $60 you can have a central hud though off ebay which might address that a little. The Hyundai could be worth a look. Quite a bit more expensive now than the 3/Y and they have NCA rather than LFP.

[DiscoDB]

The biggest issue I have with EVs available in Australia is they all look so bland. The pursuit for the most aerodynamic body takes away from the character.

I am hoping Jeep bring the Avenger to Australia. In grey with the bonnet blackout it has a bit of “baby D3” look to it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230412/348e2ee91cc01107e0fb64b11502859c.jpg

Maybe LR will offer a Defender 70 in EV one day.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The biggest issue I have with EVs available in Australia is they all look so bland. The pursuit for the most aerodynamic body takes away from the character.

I am hoping Jeep bring the Avenger to Australia. In grey with the bonnet blackout it has a bit of “baby D3” look to it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230412/348e2ee91cc01107e0fb64b11502859c.jpg

Maybe LR will offer a Defender 70 in EV one day.

See.. this is the problem. EV's are like driving a big car with a 10l petrol tank. Anything that reduces aero means you loose range and you'll have to charge it more.

That's why just whacking an EV drivetrain in an existing car isn't overly successful. What ever you save in engineering you have to pile in with more batteries to make up for the drag. It's like the chinesen GWM electric ute. Take a cheap ute and whack an electric motor in. But then you need to add a huuuuge battery pack to offset the crap aero. And then the cheap ute is no longer cheap.

I'm not sure I love the Tesla styling - but I think it looks pretty good for a car with an CD of .23. I hear your complaint about blandness - but to get this kind of aero they are all going to look similar. The hyundai ioniq 6 claimed a .22 CD. But then they had to walk that back because if the car had normal mirrors it was .23 like the Tesla, and not all markets were getting electric mirrors.

MG had to wind back their range estimates because they whacked a few bits of body kit on. Which by the way increased the drag...

MG4 driving range reduced ahead of launch - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/mg4-driving-range-reduced-ahead-of-launch-140305/)

[DiscoDB]

No doubt about that Captain. It is the obsession with maximum range that is driving this. But there is a market for EV’s that - how can I put this - don’t look like an EV.

This is why the F-150 Lightning is successful at getting pick-up truck owners into an EV. It looks like a truck.

For city use, mostly under 60kph, unless stuck on the freeway where you are more likely doing anything from 40-80kph - at least where I am, then weight is more important and the Avenger is a very small compact SUV that looks like an SUV.

The claimed WLTP is around 400km, so based on my “WLTP / 2” theory gives an optimised range of 200km.

So ticks all the boxes for a city runabout that at a most might be called upon to do a Melbourne to Geelong return trip.

It is cheaper than a Hyundai Kona in the UK - but I will bet it gets a big price mark up if it comes here.

[NavyDiver]

No doubt about that Captain. It is the obsession with maximum range that is driving this. But there is a market for EV’s that - how can I put this - don’t look like an EV.

This is why the F-150 Lightning is successful at getting pick-up truck owners into an EV. It looks like a truck.

For city use, mostly under 60kph, unless stuck on the freeway where you are more likely doing anything from 40-80kph - at least where I am, then weight is more important and the Avenger is a very small compact SUV that looks like an SUV.

The claimed WLTP is around 400km, so based on my “WLTP / 2” theory gives an optimised range of 200km.

So ticks all the boxes for a city runabout that at a stretch might be called upon to do a Melbourne to Geelong return trip.

It is cheaper than a Hyundai Kona in the UK - but I will bet it gets a big price mark up if it comes here.

My cheapie does Gelong and back often- Ok Little River rifle range[biggrin] oddly just found 17 Aprill start date which might have made changing the short range not needed IF I was happy to wait the hour if the one station is online and not occupied [bigwhistle]

Warrnambool visitor information centre electric charging station and others coming online sooner or later (https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/grants/destination-charging-across-victoria-program)

I do like the idea I can do as my Disco does- To Port fairy and back on one tank most of the time[bigwhistle] The 450ish of the replacement is not enough as I think it will be well south of 400 km at 100kph.

[DiscoDB]

I do like the idea I can do as my Disco does- To Port fairy and back on one tank most of the time[bigwhistle] The 450ish of the replacement is not enough as I think it will be well south of 400 km at 100kph.

At least with the additional range you can stop mid-way for a coffee and just top up 20-40%. Better for the battery and less of an inconvenience.

[Arapiles]

My wife's currently proceeding on the assumption that our next new car will be electric, and I'll want something that can do interstate, dirt road and light off-road comfortably. Maybe a petrol D4 .... My around-town retirement vehicle will be the following:



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/blob:https://www.aulro.com/cd23f660-82e7-46a6-a166-bd76dc6f907d

[Saitch]

My wife's currently proceeding on the assumption that our next new car will be electric, and I'll want something that can do interstate, dirt road and light off-road comfortably. Maybe a petrol D4 .... My around-town retirement vehicle will be the following:
184835


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/blob:https://www.aulro.com/cd23f660-82e7-46a6-a166-bd76dc6f907d
...

[Arapiles]

...

But it's not electric. And it doesn't have suspension.

[Tombie]

I kinda have an EV (so does wife). Just needs human energy in it also!
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230412/6b036db02af17ce33b07fc850aea1256.jpg

[Captain_Rightfoot]

My wife's currently proceeding on the assumption that our next new car will be electric, and I'll want something that can do interstate, dirt road and light off-road comfortably. Maybe a petrol D4 .... My around-town retirement vehicle will be the following:



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/blob:https://www.aulro.com/cd23f660-82e7-46a6-a166-bd76dc6f907d
Now we're talking. There are some great electric cargo bikes these days but they can be eye wateringly expensive. I reckon it's a volume thing. Were I live (Brisbane North) there is "Kedron Brook Bikeway". On that bikeway - there are 2 major shopping centres (used to be 3 until Toombull was destroyed in the flood). Chermside is also ok with some back streets. Plus a bunnings. Most things that people would need. Unfortunately the last k home is up a cliff face so the electric versions are a must.

Our family electric bike is at over 15k now .. all little trips here and there.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I kinda have an EV (so does wife). Just needs human energy in it also!
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230412/6b036db02af17ce33b07fc850aea1256.jpg

Nice. If you employed a marketing team you'd call that a Human-Electric Hybrid.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

No doubt about that Captain. It is the obsession with maximum range that is driving this. But there is a market for EV’s that - how can I put this - don’t look like an EV.

This is why the F-150 Lightning is successful at getting pick-up truck owners into an EV. It looks like a truck.

For city use, mostly under 60kph, unless stuck on the freeway where you are more likely doing anything from 40-80kph - at least where I am, then weight is more important and the Avenger is a very small compact SUV that looks like an SUV.

The claimed WLTP is around 400km, so based on my “WLTP / 2” theory gives an optimised range of 200km.

So ticks all the boxes for a city runabout that at a most might be called upon to do a Melbourne to Geelong return trip.

It is cheaper than a Hyundai Kona in the UK - but I will bet it gets a big price mark up if it comes here.
You are right. The first question everyone asks is "What's the range?". Maybe as we get more accustomed to EV's we won't be so obsessed about this. People will understand that if you're just driving around the city range is of no concern as you'll rarely do 500k of shopping trips in a day. [biggrin] Unlike ICE cars EV's typically go further in the city than on the highway. So as you say, buying a car with a big battery is probably pointless.

I can see people being more interested in the WH/Km figure which is an indication of how efficient a car is - and therefore how much power a car will need to be fed. And it varies wildly. I find this site very helpful.

Tesla Model Y (2022-2023) price and specifications - EV Database (https://ev-database.org/car/1743/Tesla-Model-Y)

[DiscoDB]

I kinda have an EV (so does wife). Just needs human energy in it also!
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230412/6b036db02af17ce33b07fc850aea1256.jpg

…and so the EV bug bites again.

I converted my wife’s bike to electric about 10yrs ago. Was good for 40kph, had about a 20-30km range depending on how much the human assisted. Was effectively 2 wheel drive - pedals drove the back wheel and electric motor was mounted to the front hub.

But used lead batteries and was very heavy. Had to upgrade the tyres to something that could handle the weight and grip better. About 3yrs ago I converted the batteries to lithium. Lighter and better range but the batteries cost more than the bike.

Sadly it is out of service again as I try to source some replacement parts.

All good low cost fun. But gets you thinking about converting a car.

Your D2 Ute conversion project would be an excellent platform to convert to EV. A centre mounted Tesla large drive unit, change the gearing to 4.5:1 and add a Quaife ATB differential, a pair of Tesla Prop Shaft stumps matched to the Defender drive shaft joint, modified prop shafts, battery packs split between the engine bay and under the tray in the rear, and an after market controller and you would have a very capable electric 4x4. Just needs some electronic trickery to keep the BCU happy.

[4bee]

Even straight off the showroom, why people buy these ****boxes is beyond me.


Bugger me dead, & there is QPOL just ordered another 45 Cars for police work.

I read somewhere, that from the start they were supposed to be ratsch.

Corruption in QPOL & backhanders?

[4bee]

...

That should flatten the curves.

[Arapiles]

Now we're talking. There are some great electric cargo bikes these days but they can be eye wateringly expensive. I reckon it's a volume thing. Were I live (Brisbane North) there is "Kedron Brook Bikeway". On that bikeway - there are 2 major shopping centres (used to be 3 until Toombull was destroyed in the flood). Chermside is also ok with some back streets. Plus a bunnings. Most things that people would need. Unfortunately the last k home is up a cliff face so the electric versions are a must.

Our family electric bike is at over 15k now .. all little trips here and there.

Where I live (inner-northern suburbs of Melbourne) there are heaps of cargo bikes being used by families, particularly the long-tail style ones. Typically used to take kids to kindy and school and then on to shopping or work - there's a couple of regulars in the bike shed at work. There's a company that actually leases the Tern e-cargo bikes, and I've seen quite a few of their bikes around. We've got a Japanese mama-chari, which we should probably pass on to someone else now that the kids are grown up.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Those who don't like government encouraging EV uptake are going to have a tough week by the looks.

Labor’s ‘quite ambitious’ electric vehicle strategy expected to be released this week | Electric vehicles | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/16/australias-coming-national-electric-vehicle-strategy-will-be-quite-ambitious-experts-say)

[123rover50]

Interesting read,
Australian miner to trial world's first electric "triple" road train with swappable battery (https://thedriven.io/2023/04/18/australian-miner-to-trial-worlds-first-electric-triple-road-train-with-swappable-battery/)

[scarry]

Those who don't like government encouraging EV uptake are going to have a tough week by the looks.

Labor’s ‘quite ambitious’ electric vehicle strategy expected to be released this week | Electric vehicles | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/16/australias-coming-national-electric-vehicle-strategy-will-be-quite-ambitious-experts-say)

The current Governments last effort was not much more than a joke,let’s see what they come up with this time.

[RANDLOVER]

My cheapie does Gelong and back often- Ok Little River rifle range[biggrin] oddly just found 17 Aprill start date which might have made changing the short range not needed IF I was happy to wait the hour if the one station is online and not occupied [bigwhistle]

Warrnambool visitor information centre electric charging station and others coming online sooner or later (https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/grants/destination-charging-across-victoria-program)

I do like the idea I can do as my Disco does- To Port fairy and back on one tank most of the time[bigwhistle] The 450ish of the replacement is not enough as I think it will be well south of 400 km at 100kph.

You might like this LDV with a said to be 1000 km's range although that is based on China's test cycle which is more ambitious.

LDV reveals 1000hp electric off-road ute, may preview eT60 successor - Drive (https://www.drive.com.au/news/ldv-reveals-1000hp-electric-off-road-ute-may-preview-et60-successor/)

[Homestar]

You might like this LDV with a said to be 1000 km's range although that is based on China's test cycle which is more ambitious.

LDV reveals 1000hp electric off-road ute, may preview eT60 successor - Drive (https://www.drive.com.au/news/ldv-reveals-1000hp-electric-off-road-ute-may-preview-et60-successor/)

If they can make them so they don’t rust out almost instantly like their current crop of utes do now that would be interesting. Range claims are only doing the industry a disservice but it seems no OEM gives a hoot about that.

[NavyDiver]

You might like this LDV with a said to be 1000 km's range although that is based on China's test cycle which is more ambitious.

LDV reveals 1000hp electric off-road ute, may preview eT60 successor - Drive (https://www.drive.com.au/news/ldv-reveals-1000hp-electric-off-road-ute-may-preview-et60-successor/)


Chatted to a family that owned one in QLD last week. They have not pushed the range at all yet.

I think it was a LDV that got toasted for rusting out a while back? It was a surf club gent driving on the beach to be little fair to that yarn

Has anyone posted on the Australian gov ev policy? "[B]Federal government passes EV incentive bill

THE Australian federal government has passed its Treasury Laws Amendment (Electric Car Discount) Bill (https://goauto.com.au/news/general-news/electric-vehicles/govt-reveals-ev-strategy-discussion-paper/2022-09-28/89295.html), which will provide up to $2000 off the purchase price of battery electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles, as well as fringe benefits tax (FBT) exemptions for fleets and novated leases.

Discounts apply to electric vehicles (EV) and plug-in hybrid vehicles (PHEV) that retail below the luxury car tax (LCT) threshold of $84,916 and are offered in addition to other state and territory incentives.

Electric vehicles will also be prioritised in government fleet purchasing decisions to both reduce government transport emissions and provide more electric cars to the used market.

The Bill passed the Senate with 31 votes against 24 after a deal was struck between Labor, Greens and independent Senator David Pocock.

"

Whoops thats last years


"[B]A fuel efficiency standard is coming, but there may be a delay in driving cheaper electric vehicles to Australia[bigwhistle]

" A fuel efficiency standard is coming, but there may be a delay in driving cheaper electric vehicles to Australia - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-04-20/australia-should-fast-track-emissions-ceiling-process-ev-cars/102241796)

That is going to upset the dumping of old tech to Australia perhaps?

[Homestar]

No, it did no beach driving at all - just parked near the beach - the courts ruled it was unfit for purpose and ordered LDV to provide a full refund.

There’s plenty of others that have surface rust showing inside and outside the chassis and on the body in less that 12 months as well.

It will evolve as the company does - at some stage they’ll start dipping the chassis and bodies like other OEM’s do and sort this, but they aren’t there yet IMO.

They seem ok mechanically - I was chatting to our local guy that services all our work vehicles when he had one on the hoist (notable surface rust underneath it). He hasn’t seen any significant issues with them mechanically that you wouldn’t see anywhere else but he’s not a fan of them overall.

The cheap fit and finish still shines through as well any time you look at in inside one, and they feel cheap when driving them too and are underpowered compared to the competition as well. I drove pretty much every dual cab on the market recently before ordering a couple for work (apart from the Amarok - wouldn’t touch a VW) and the LDV would be my least favourite - followed by the Hilux but that’s for very different reasons.

[RANDLOVER]

When they first came here, I saw one of our contractors parking an LDV ute in a lane near work, so I asked him what it was like and he said, "horrible".

[Hoges]

Don't know if this has received much publicity
https://www.drive.com.au/news/british-army-electric-land-rover-defenders/'dicbo=v2-paB4AzE&utm_campaign=outbrain&utm_source=nine.com.au&utm_medium=partner

I wondered if the forward position fuel dump of the future would accommodate a fossil fuel reservoir, and diesel powered gen sets (multiples thereof) to maintain the quick change battery pile.... or a shipping container sized thorium reactor in liu of the diesel. The US Defence Dept's R&D ?DARPA has apparently offered development contracts for portable reactors....

[Homestar]

‘Phase out from 2030’ - so the Brass will have EV’s to hump their fat arses around but I doubt they’ll be retrofitting or building any Tanks or front line equipment as EV’s in my lifetime.

You can just imagine the incessant report if some poor sod is killed because the battery went flat at a critical time.

‘The OEM said it would go 200 miles cross county - the battery went flat after 120 miles while still in enemy territory’. [emoji6]

[NavyDiver]

‘Phase out from 2030’ - so the Brass will have EV’s to hump their fat arses around but I doubt they’ll be retrofitting or building any Tanks or front line equipment as EV’s in my lifetime.

You can just imagine the incessant report if some poor sod is killed because the battery went flat at a critical time.

‘The OEM said it would go 200 miles cross county - the battery went flat after 120 miles while still in enemy territory’. [emoji6]

Yes and no. The silent service loved battery for really quiet. (Submarines)

I bet EV bike and off road transport will be army or special forces kit shortly if not already.

Subtle and silent is NOT how current tanks sound[thumbsupbig] "190 Decibels" A 30 cal rifle in WSM might be quieter![biggrin]

Point is once the shooting starts noise is a non issue. Before it starts the silent type is much less likely to be the first target.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSAeBT9wL4Q

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Chatted to a family that owned one in QLD last week. They have not pushed the range at all yet.

I think it was a LDV that got toasted for rusting out a while back? It was a surf club gent driving on the beach to be little fair to that yarn

Has anyone posted on the Australian gov ev policy? "[B]Federal government passes EV incentive bill

THE Australian federal government has passed its Treasury Laws Amendment (Electric Car Discount) Bill (https://goauto.com.au/news/general-news/electric-vehicles/govt-reveals-ev-strategy-discussion-paper/2022-09-28/89295.html), which will provide up to $2000 off the purchase price of battery electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles, as well as fringe benefits tax (FBT) exemptions for fleets and novated leases.

Discounts apply to electric vehicles (EV) and plug-in hybrid vehicles (PHEV) that retail below the luxury car tax (LCT) threshold of $84,916 and are offered in addition to other state and territory incentives.

Electric vehicles will also be prioritised in government fleet purchasing decisions to both reduce government transport emissions and provide more electric cars to the used market.

The Bill passed the Senate with 31 votes against 24 after a deal was struck between Labor, Greens and independent Senator David Pocock.

"

Whoops thats last years


"[B]A fuel efficiency standard is coming, but there may be a delay in driving cheaper electric vehicles to Australia[bigwhistle]

" A fuel efficiency standard is coming, but there may be a delay in driving cheaper electric vehicles to Australia - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-04-20/australia-should-fast-track-emissions-ceiling-process-ev-cars/102241796)

That is going to upset the dumping of old tech to Australia perhaps?
For people in a job where they can salary sacrifice - the EV FBT discount thing is a really big incentive. A friend has a BYD he's going to pick up, and I think it's costing him 8k a year all up over three years. What a deal!

[PhilipA]

Dooh Nibor riding through Canberra. Dooh Nibor Door Nibor with his merry executives.
Sung to tune of Robin Hood.

Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

‘Phase out from 2030’ - so the Brass will have EV’s to hump their fat arses around but I doubt they’ll be retrofitting or building any Tanks or front line equipment as EV’s in my lifetime.

You can just imagine the incessant report if some poor sod is killed because the battery went flat at a critical time.

‘The OEM said it would go 200 miles cross county - the battery went flat after 120 miles while still in enemy territory’. [emoji6]

Got to chat with some "Brass" today during/after the Melbourne ANZAC march. Interestingly I was correct on some of my guesses.
Very pleased to note a name or two in technology I follow closely is on drawing board.


Sadly a few less able to march now. That happens every year of course as change is inevitable in several areas of our lives.

Lest We Forget
https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.pD3akPyaGFA0GYVbg2FdBgHaHa?pid=ImgDet&rs=1

[NavyDiver]

i read today that break even for a five-year total cost of ownership for a tesla Mod 3 and Toyota corolla[bigwhistle]

Now data "According to the available data, all three OEMs improved their results year-over-year. However, only Tesla set a new quarterly record (422,875), while BYD (264,647) and Volkswagen Group (140,852) noted a result lower than in Q4 2022 (VW Group is actually slightly behind Q3 2022).
BYD improved its sales by 85 percent, which is significantly more than Tesla (36 percent), although it remains around 160,000 units behind Tesla, just like a year ago. The key is that the difference is now relatively smaller than in Q1 2022. If Tesla wants to remain the top player in the long term, it must grow faster."

I did briefly consider a Tesla Model y with a 1.5t towing capacity then I recalled a Diving Hero and thought NOT a Chance[bigwhistle]

[RANDLOVER]

Yes and no. The silent service loved battery for really quiet. (Submarines)

I bet EV bike and off road transport will be army or special forces kit shortly if not already....

I have suspected that for a long time, and also that electric outboard boat motors play a big part in covert raids.

[NavyDiver]

Our very quiet O boats beat me every timeNote report today we cannot keep more than one of the current hybrid subs at sea[bighmmm]

Edit
Claims of almost 1000km might get a few interested IF they ever get to Australia of course

2023 NIO ES8 and EC7 revealed - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/2023-nio-es8-and-ec7-revealed-138963/)
The EC7 has up to 584 miles of CLTC range.
Deliveries of NIO's coupe-style SUV, the EC7, have officially commenced. For now the EC7 is only on sale in China, however it's expected to make it over to Europe in just a few months time. The luxury SUV is one of the most aerodynamic vehicles on sale, with a drag coefficient of just 0.23 Cd.The EC7 is available with a choice of either a 75 kWh, 100 kWh, or 150 kWh battery pack. The CLTC ranges for each are 304 miles, 395 miles, and 584 miles respectively. Bear in mind CLTC figures are usually 30-40% higher than EPA ranges.


"The drag coefficient is slipperier than the Tesla Model X (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/tesla-model-x-2017-review-105907/), prompting NIO to claim that it’s the world’s most aerodynamic SUV at 0.23Cd."

It just might get here?

"[B]Australian under studyAs carsales has reported (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/chinas-nio-reveals-australian-launch-plan-133540/), NIO senior management made it clear at last year’s NIO Day that Australia is among its targets with its global expansion plan.
It’s not yet clear whether an Aussie tilt would be made through a factory distribution channel or an independent importer.
However, BLK Auto – which is the company behind the JAC Motors relaunch Down Under – said recently that it “100 per cent would be there” (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/chinas-jac-plans-aussie-suv-and-car-expansion-138791/) if it had the opportunity to pick up NIO, which has a manufacturing joint-venture with JAC.


"

[NavyDiver]

Most EV batteries have a specific energy of under 300Wh/kg.
CATL says its new battery almost doubles that figure, with a specific energy of 500Wh/kg

End 2023? Hope so. Details are a bit thin! Is is not that much better than the Model Y battery. I assume it is not a Solid State battery!


CATL unveils battery that may power electric airplanes and 1000km-range EVs - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2023-05-03/catl-announces-battery-to-make-electric-aviation-possible/102289310?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web)

[DiscoDB]

Watching what China is up to with EV’s is certainly interesting.

BYD have a new “Defender look-a-like” Hybrid that has 880kW and 1280Nm on tap. It has one electric motor per wheel and it’s party trick is being able to do 360 degree turns on the spot like an army tank.

BYD YangWang U8 with 1,180 HP spotted on the trailer in China. Deliveries to start in September (https://carnewschina.com/2023/05/02/byd-yangwang-u8-with-1180-hp-spotted-on-the-trailer-in-china-deliveries-to-start-in-september/)

BYD YangWang U8 performs full 360° tank turn in desert - YouTube (https://youtu.be/dkROmU9Bxbw)

It also floats on water!

BYD Yangwang U8 Hardcore Off-road SUV Amazing Features English Subtitle 4K - YouTube (https://youtu.be/RhvHF87ufac)

[Narangga]

Most EV batteries have a specific energy of under 300Wh/kg.
CATL says its new battery almost doubles that figure, with a specific energy of 500Wh/kg

End 2023? Hope so. Details are a bit thin! Is is not that much better than the Model Y battery. I assume it is not a Solid State battery!


CATL unveils battery that may power electric airplanes and 1000km-range EVs - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2023-05-03/catl-announces-battery-to-make-electric-aviation-possible/102289310?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web)

Yes I saw that and thought the same regarding the thin details...

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Yes I saw that and thought the same regarding the thin details...
And when they say it enables electric aeroplanes. I'm sure it's a help. Maybe it might allow some very short haul small AC flying.

But it's not going to allow you to jump on a plane and fly any distance commercially.

[NavyDiver]

Noticed cupra pricing and details at
The new CUPRA Born 100% electric car | CUPRA (https://www.cupraofficial.com.au/cars/cupra-range/born.html)


Put me back on my major grumble of WLPT testing and why is mostly a total crock of you know what
https://www.drive.com.au/news/wltp-whats-all-the-fuss-about/
"At 30 minutes, the new drive cycle is 50 per cent longer than the NEDC, and the 23.35km route is 12.25km longer than before. During a normal test cycle, cars are driven at low (up to 60km/h), medium (up to 80km/h), high (up 100km/h) and very high (beyond 130km/h) speeds.
As a result of the new speed cycles, the overall average speed on the test is 46km/h instead of 34km/h.


Unlike before, mathematical models are used to determine the difference between cars with unique specifications. That means big wheels, spoilers or heavy add-ons like a sunroof will also have an impact on fuel emissions. Maybe that 22-inch rubber and the panoramic sunroof weren't such a good idea after all."

I know my car is 50% ish at 100kph:rulez::rulez::rulez: My car has NO modifications at all:bat:

The new 450ish replacement one soon Is expected to be 300ish I hope!! My now 3 year old MG is going to a 80th birthday party in Warranbool oddly as the Disco is going for a service after a kindergarten trip to Sydney and back only for several younger types loaded[biggrin]
Might be the last time the EV trip adds an hour at RACV Torquay and the OMG avoidance at Colac or Warrnambool snail pace 7kWh charge options for this back duck.

Melb to Port fairy is 284km ish Not certain why Western Districts of Vic is still very light on fast charging (Excluding Tesla only[bighmmm])

Plans to add charging options are as always planning [bighmmm]
PS Mg is for sale IF disco is not sold. Tricky bit is it might be[bawl]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Noticed cupra pricing and details at
The new CUPRA Born 100% electric car | CUPRA (https://www.cupraofficial.com.au/cars/cupra-range/born.html)


Put me back on my major grumble of WLPT testing and why is mostly a total crock of you know what
https://www.drive.com.au/news/wltp-whats-all-the-fuss-about/
"At 30 minutes, the new drive cycle is 50 per cent longer than the NEDC, and the 23.35km route is 12.25km longer than before. During a normal test cycle, cars are driven at low (up to 60km/h), medium (up to 80km/h), high (up 100km/h) and very high (beyond 130km/h) speeds.
As a result of the new speed cycles, the overall average speed on the test is 46km/h instead of 34km/h.


Unlike before, mathematical models are used to determine the difference between cars with unique specifications. That means big wheels, spoilers or heavy add-ons like a sunroof will also have an impact on fuel emissions. Maybe that 22-inch rubber and the panoramic sunroof weren't such a good idea after all."

I know my car is 50% ish at 100kph:rulez::rulez::rulez: My car has NO modifications at all:bat:

The new 450ish replacement one soon Is expected to be 300ish I hope!! My now 3 year old MG is going to a 80th birthday party in Warranbool oddly as the Disco is going for a service after a kindergarten trip to Sydney and back only for several younger types loaded[biggrin]
Might be the last time the EV trip adds an hour at RACV Torquay and the OMG avoidance at Colac or Warrnambool snail pace 7kWh charge options for this back duck.

Melb to Port fairy is 284km ish Not certain why Western Districts of Vic is still very light on fast charging (Excluding Tesla only[bighmmm])

Plans to add charging options are as always planning [bighmmm]
PS Mg is for sale IF disco is not sold. Tricky bit is it might be[bawl]

We have a prospective Cupra owner in our midst.

I have heard that some EV's do better in the real world than on the test. It would appear to me that if you want a good highway car you really need to be looking at the drag coefficient.

The yanks drive fast - faster than us. Tesla have good aerodynamics.

[NavyDiver]

We have a prospective Cupra owner in our midst.

I have heard that some EV's do better in the real world than on the test. It would appear to me that if you want a good highway car you really need to be looking at the drag coefficient.

The yanks drive fast - faster than us. Tesla have good aerodynamics.

I posted a real test a while ago in this thread. Of those cars just Two did the range promised. Very happy to note a new test on 21 EVs with Much better results for 18 of them.

That fact really put others to shame claiming clearly not real world ranges [bigwhistle]

I think most people know things get better from a T model ford to what we have right now.

EVs are about to get the benefit of much better and smaller batteries and I hope fuel cells to really rock the range, towing and 4wd wants some of us have. [thumbsupbig]

"Out of the total 21 vehicles tested, 18 exceeded their WLTP range (https://insideevs.com/news/510307/audi-etron-gt-bjorn-range/), according to NAF. The three vehicles that didn’t were the Polestar 2, Citroen e-C4 and the Xpeng G3 that fell short by 3, 5 and 12 km (1.9, 3.1 and 7.4 miles) respectively. But even these three provided impressive results, considering the fact that the WLTP test cycle, while more accurate than NEDC, often provides optimistic results that can’t really be achieved in the real world.The Tesla Model 3 Long Range was the overall winner, according to the source, and it managed a very impressive 654.9 km (406.9 miles). Next was the Ford Mustang Mach-E Long Range RWD 617.9 km (383.9 miles), or just 27 km (16.7 miles) less than the Tesla. The source points out the Model 3 it tested is the updated version with the 614 km WLTP claimed range (up from the pre-refresh model's 580 km).




It is important to note that all these cars were driven well after their predicted range had reached zero. Both the Mach-E and the Model 3 reached the 0 km mark at around 600 km, but they kept driving the vehicles until they stopped, and the Tesla lasted a lot longer."

Massive Range Test Staged In Norway: 21 EVs Driven Until Dead (https://insideevs.com/news/512426/norway-ev-summer-range-test/#:~:text=21%20EVs%20were%20driven%20until%20they%2 0stopped%20completely,similar%20style%20of%20drivi ng%2C%20and%20climate%20control%20settings.)

My thought false advertising will bite companies that fail to repeat this cools test! Even the failures are very very close. Nothing as off target as my own current brand! I note one or two suggested the MG could do more than the 260km range promised her in Australia and a few other places. Suspect a $$$ or two involved?

[scarry]

Looks like Ford are not going to follow the EV sheep anytime soon.

Ford CEO JUST Banned EVs For Life! - YouTube (https://youtu.be/2R4TBtj3ka0)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Looks like Ford are not going to follow the EV sheep anytime soon.

Ford CEO JUST Banned EVs For Life! - YouTube (https://youtu.be/2R4TBtj3ka0)

I can't find anything about that anywhere in the "normal" press.

[DiscoDB]

I can't find anything about that anywhere in the "normal" press.

What - you don’t believe everything you read on social media….

The sad thing is all the people who commented on the video that believed it to be true.

Ford are fighting it out with GM to be the no.2 largest manufacturer of EV’s in the US.

Toyota have a lot of catching up to do, and plan to release 30 EV models by 2030.

I expect all, including Tesla, will be challenged by BYD.

I do hope hydrogen also becomes an strong alternative. EV’s for city use, and H2 for transportation and regional use would be a good outcome.

[scarry]

What - you don’t believe everything you read on social media….

The sad thing is all the people who commented on the video that believed it to be true.

Ford are fighting it out with GM to be the no.2 largest manufacturer of EV’s in the US.

Toyota have a lot of catching up to do, and plan to release 30 EV models by 2030.

I expect all, including Tesla, will be challenged by BYD.

I do hope hydrogen also becomes an strong alternative. EV’s for city use, and H2 for transportation and regional use would be a good outcome.

As for EV global sales,2022,I think you will find the Chinese are next after Tesla,with VW coming along behind them.

Ford and GM are way down the list,but up there in the US.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next 5 yrs,particularly with Toyota.

[DiscoDB]

If you include PHEV’s, then BYD are already no. 1.

At some point hybrids with a H2 cell “range extender” will be the ultimate solution to range anxiety without the need for a 400kg battery pack.

Charge at home and run on battery for short commutes (which is 80% of peoples needs), and then add a H2 powered generator to recharge on the run for long distance trips to give you the highly sought after 800-1000km range.

The best of both worlds. This is where Toyota could make a strong come back.

[Homestar]

I can't find anything about that anywhere in the "normal" press.

Me neither - only thing showing is the pause of the lightning due to battery issues back in late Feb but nothing else. A little late for an April fools joke.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

What - you don’t believe everything you read on social media….

The sad thing is all the people who commented on the video that believed it to be true.

Ford are fighting it out with GM to be the no.2 largest manufacturer of EV’s in the US.

Toyota have a lot of catching up to do, and plan to release 30 EV models by 2030.

I expect all, including Tesla, will be challenged by BYD.

I do hope hydrogen also becomes an strong alternative. EV’s for city use, and H2 for transportation and regional use would be a good outcome.

BYD are an intriguing car company. Looks promising. CCP links excluded. Their margins are reportedly not that special. Friend has one.. the atto3 seems pretty good.

IMHO if Teslas reported profit margins are as great as they say, they aren't going to easily be over run by the legacy manufacturers. People are preoccupied with the cars, but their potential lies in their manufacturing and distribution models, and vertical integration that enable them to have unprecedented margins. Basically they just price their vehicles to sell as many as they produce. As they bring on more factories it's likely they'll drop prices.

And this is the issue for the Jap car industry. They've got virtually 0 EV's now, but even if they do manage to pivot and have a number of ev's - they will have to be competitive with Tesla who also won't stop development. And 30 models? Will that help keep costs down? And - they are going to have to make a motza on every one to make up for losses in their ICE factories and to compete with BYD and Tesla.

[RANDLOVER]

An EV ran in the recent Targa Tasmania, not sure where it finished in the standings, but it seemed more of an info gathering exercise.

The electric car taking on Targa Tasmania - Torquecafe.com (speedcafe.com) (https://www.speedcafe.com/torquecafe/spied-the-electric-car-is-taking-on-targa-tasmania/)

[NavyDiver]

An EV ran in the recent Targa Tasmania, not sure where it finished in the standings, but it seemed more of an info gathering exercise.

The electric car taking on Targa Tasmania - Torquecafe.com (speedcafe.com) (https://www.speedcafe.com/torquecafe/spied-the-electric-car-is-taking-on-targa-tasmania/)

"TARGA Tasmania travels over 2,000kms across six days" Looks like it has been delayed to Oct 2023. Changes to make it softer and safer for errors it seem.

It is/will be "Korean giant Hyundai has announced it will spearhead a push into the electric vehicle component of TARGA Tasmania next year.

As part of the exciting plan, Hyundai will dip its toes in the water at the 30th anniversary TARGA Tasmania from April 26 to May 1 by entering a Genesis GV60 EV as part of the non-competitive tour section of the famed tarmac rally.

The South Korean automaker will dispatch a crew of seven for what will be a reconnaissance mission ahead of entry into the newly formed EV category in 2023. (https://targa.com.au/hyundai-embarks-on-ev-mission-at-targa-tasmania/)"

This is interesting

ULTRA RAPID CHARGING Even the charging is high performance, taking just 18 minutes1 to charge from 10-80%. Note "350kW with a Chargefox Ultra-rapid charger" are not that common yet!
Fingerprint Authentication System,
electro-mechanical Limited Slip Differential fitted to the rear, able to electronically sense wheel slippage and activate a multi-clutch plate system to optimise stability and cornering performance, by shifting drive force between left and right wheels. ​

​ This offers drivers more stable control on slippery roads and in snowy or rainy weather.​
the ha ha bit: , Electronic Active Sound Design invites you the driver to enjoy virtual driving sounds based on the driving mode, the vehicle’s speed and accelerator pedal data. Choose from three sounds: a ‘Futuristic’ sound that symbolises the direction of future mobility; a soft and sporty ‘G-Engine’ tone that’s based on engine noises; and ‘E-Motor’ which reimagines the vehicle’s motor sound.
The Performance AWD does 0-100km/h in 4.0 seconds


all from GENESIS GV60 Electric SUV | GENESIS Australia GENESIS GV60 Electric SUV | GENESIS Australia (https://www.genesis.com/au/en/models/luxury-suv-genesis/gv60/highlights.html)


Heard a interesting chat about Moores law and computer chips yesterday. "Moore's law is the observation that the number of transistors in an integrated circuit (IC) doubles about every two years. Moore's law is an observation "

Battery tech is evolving fast. I still feel Solid state 2025 will really rock the boat[thumbsupbig]

[Homestar]

Heard a interesting chat about Moores law and computer chips yesterday. "Moore's law is the observation that the number of transistors in an integrated circuit (IC) doubles about every two years. Moore's law is an observation "

Great video on Moores Law - Animation: Visualizing Moore's Law in Action (1971-2019) (https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-moores-law-in-action-1971-2019/)

Given most seem to think Moores law is dead or at least in its death throws, I hope that isn't a sign about battery tech as well... [bigwhistle]

[NavyDiver]

500 plus[biggrin] My about to be new drive [biggrin]

MG4 price announced for economical EV | Practical Motoring (https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-news/mg4-price-announced-for-economical-ev/)

The "but more expensive than its $43,990 MG ZS EV sibling." is a bit rubbishy as the new not here yet either Long range ZS is close to 60K[bigwhistle]

Apples to apples I think[biggrin]

[Narangga]

Now let the wait begin... [bigsad]

IT


HAS


BEEN

BUILT! :banana: :banana: :banana:

Now hopefully no more than 10 weeks until it get here...:unsure:

[Narangga]

I Took Toyota’s Hydrogen Car for a Spin and It Left Me Optimistic (https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2023/05/toyota-hydrogen-car-mirai-australia/)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

IT


HAS


BEEN

BUILT! :banana: :banana: :banana:

Now hopefully no more than 10 weeks until it get here...:unsure:
Where do cars for the NT come through? Do the boats go there or Adelaide?

The ports in Aus are nuts at the moment.

My car sat bobbing off the sunshine coast for 2.5 weeks before the boat could even dock. I gather Port Kembla is far worse.

[NavyDiver]

Where do cars for the NT come through? Do the boats go there or Adelaide?

The ports in Aus are nuts at the moment.

My car sat bobbing off the sunshine coast for 2.5 weeks before the boat could even dock. I gather Port Kembla is far worse.

In Noosa for a break. I think I counted twenty odd in holding to get into Brisbane. [bighmmm] Traffic jams on water

[4bee]

Where do cars for the NT come through? Do the boats go there or Adelaide?

The ports in Aus are nuts at the moment.

My car sat bobbing off the sunshine coast for 2.5 weeks before the boat could even dock. I gather Port Kembla is far worse.


Then you will be glad it has airbags to keep it afloat for 2.5 weeks & enjoying the sunshine (it has got airbags hasn't it?' )[bighmmm][bigrolf]

[Narangga]

Where do cars for the NT come through? Do the boats go there or Adelaide?

The ports in Aus are nuts at the moment.

My car sat bobbing off the sunshine coast for 2.5 weeks before the boat could even dock. I gather Port Kembla is far worse.

Mostly through Singapore, however that is not always direct. The next vessel is due 22 May having departed Fremantle 17 May having come direct from Japan. Most likely has vehicles from other countries that were shipped via Singapore to Freo by other vessels.

Due to volumes here there is minimal delay once the vessel is in port.

[Narangga]

Then you will be glad it has airbags to keep it afloat for 2.5 weeks & enjoying the sunshine (it has got airbags hasn't it?' )[bighmmm][bigrolf]

Yes the airbags operate using electricity :angel:

[NavyDiver]

500million quid not $!! this is rather big for Landrover lovers. Or haters who might hate this

"£500 million loan guarantee supports Jaguar Land Rover’s electric vehicle plans

Jaguar Land Rover Automotive plc has received a £500 million Export Development Guarantee which will support the research, development and export of Battery Electric Vehicles, International Trade Secretary Anne-Marie Trevelyan said today (31 January).
UK Export Finance (UKEF) guaranteed 80% of a new £625 million loan from 12 commercial banks, under its Export Development Guarantee (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/export-development-guarantee?utm_source=miragenews&utm_medium=miragenews&utm_campaign=news) (EDG) program designed to drive major investments into UK exporters."

" The government is also directly investing more than £850 million to develop the supply chain for cleaner vehicles in the UK to ensure our auto industry remains competitive for years to come and has supported over £2 billion of commercial investment into the industry’s export capacity through UKEF"

Free and nifty version PS500 million loan guarantee supports Jaguar Land Rover’s electric vehicle plans | Mirage News (https://www.miragenews.com/500-million-loan-guarantee-supports-jaguar-land-715723/)
Paywalled Jeremy Hunt offers Jaguar Land Rover PS500m to keep factory in UK (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rishi-sunak-jaguar-landrover-factory-uk-500-million-pounds-5mtdm6dgn)

Lots of money- Interestingly a chat with a very very knowledgeable Landrover Gent yesterday covered his view hydrogen combustion in ICE was his preference so we could keep all our old cars rather than make new ones. Loved his thoughts yet suspect repair and recycling is Fuel cell Electric boat mod still in the sphere of possible. The Haters of EV or Hydrogen EV would love this gent! Going to send him my data file on the hydrogen combustion rather than fuel cells! With Germany holding EU back from ICE elimination via its insistence on inclusion of biofuel for ICE the Hydrogen combustion companies I know might be very hot? NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE - I do not hold or own any of them!!!!

[B]MG News

Police like my car? [biggrin] https://www.drive.com.au/news/queensland-police-reveal-marked-mg-hs-plus-ev-plug-in-hybrid-patrol-cars/#:~:text=Queensland%20Police%20reveals,low%2Demiss ions%20vehicles.
(https://www.drive.com.au/news/queensland-police-reveal-marked-mg-hs-plus-ev-plug-in-hybrid-patrol-cars/#:~:text=Queensland%20Police%20reveals,low%2Demiss ions%20vehicles.)
[B]Queensland Police reveals marked MG HS Plus EV plug-in hybrid patrol cars


A new fleet of plug-in hybrid MG SUVs have been acquired by Queensland Police, as it pushes ahead with its fleet of low-emissions vehicles.



I wonder if the 3100 MG xs EVs are all sold???
Express shipment direct from Shanghai delivers more than 3100 new MGs to Australia

MG Motor has tackled Australia’s automotive supply crisis (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/delivery-wrap-wait-times-for-australias-best-sellers-revealed-140448/) head-on by landing its first full ship-load of new vehicles direct from China last week.
Owned by MG parent company SAIC, the Viking Emerald cargo vessel arrived in Port Kembla last Friday (May 12) with more than 3100 new MG hatchbacks and SUVs on board, after travelling from Shanghai with no stops. https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/mg-tackles-supply-issues-with-first-dedicated-direct-ship-load-140794/


Pricing on the MG4 rear wheel drive is out. I want the Long Range but wonder if $10,000 for 100km extra range is a bit excessive?? The XS long range is 8000 more than the standard range. I do not see the value and assume pricing is more profit than actual cost?

I might skimp on and save the cash for a New Hydrogen or solid state battery electric Disco? Quantumscape has shipped some for testing to some manufactures already. Delivery's scheduled 2025 is of course a forecast[bighmmm] Landrover does not seem to be involved in the solid state battery space yet I am hoping it is quietly in the mix already!


My MG XS EV is about to be up for sale with a delayed delivery schedule-

Back to work[thumbsupbig]

[Homestar]

Had to have a little chuckle this morning. We installed some generators on a building in the City to run it's essential services from today until Sunday night while a new main switchboard is installed. All occupants of the building have been told about this for weeks so when one of the employees (High level Management) turns up in their Company EV he drives up to one of the chargers and is told politely by one of the Electricians on site that the charger isn't working until Monday AM.

The bloke goes off his nuts as his EV is almost flat and he hasn't enough charge to get it home. Lots of things like Ï wasn't told about this' etc then get thrown around and one of the people I was working with quietly told me 'He's the one that sent the emails out saying there would be no non essential power from today...'

Guess he thought his charger was on the Essential Switchboard. I was leaving while they were looking up alternate charging points in the City he could drive to... [biggrin]

[101RRS]

Yes but if he was driving an ICE he would not have been able to fuel up there either and have to go to a service station - why doesn't he just go to charging station.

These EV people are so self centred and entitled - they expect charging in their apartment building, charging at their workplace and expect charging in the supermarket carpark - us ICE drivers could never fill up at our apartment building, or at the workplace or get fuel in the supermarket carpark, yet EV drivers expect all this - FFS just go to charging station the same as us ICE drivers have to go to a service station to get fuel.

Garry

[Homestar]

He was senior management - of course he was self centered and entitled - even before he was driving an EV I should think. [bigwhistle]

[NavyDiver]

Had to have a little chuckle this morning. We installed some generators on a building in the City to run it's essential services from today until Sunday night while a new main switchboard is installed. All occupants of the building have been told about this for weeks so when one of the employees (High level Management) turns up in their Company EV he drives up to one of the chargers and is told politely by one of the Electricians on site that the charger isn't working until Monday AM.

The bloke goes off his nuts as his EV is almost flat and he hasn't enough charge to get it home. Lots of things like Ï wasn't told about this' etc then get thrown around and one of the people I was working with quietly told me 'He's the one that sent the emails out saying there would be no non essential power from today...'

Guess he thought his charger was on the Essential Switchboard. I was leaving while they were looking up alternate charging points in the City he could drive to... [biggrin]


Should have recorded that tosser[thumbsupbig]

Note a mate who is a sparky is conspiring to have power as a Fringe Benefit for his shifts[biggrin]

I'm BOO HOO fully electric as of drop off of the Disco in the morning[bawl][bawl][bawl] My camping trailer hooked up and its looking ready for a adventure with 5 Muddies on the 17 inch rims loaded on the trailer. Sad as to see it go. Landrover better get there skates on ! (EV or Hydrogen EV :) )

[NavyDiver]

Mia Culpa[bawl] While watching a football game (1/2time) I read about CATL 1000wh/kg battery tech. Now I cannot find it.



Why is that number significant? The car I was going to change to in July MG4 is 200ishwh/kg and goes 550km. The company making the MG batteries is a joint venture with the company that suggests it will be shipping 1000wh/kg batteries this year. The MG4 with the same weight of 1000wh/kg batteries may have a 2500km range.

IF this is true the price of a car I buy in July would decline by a significant amount by December!

"In recent years, with the rapid development of aerospace technology, there is a higher demand for energy. High-performance electrical energy systems can increase payload, reduce launch costs and improve on-orbit reliability. At the same time, with the change of application scenarios, the diversity of energy has also been tested. Lithium carbon fluoride primary battery (Li-CF x ) has gradually emerged in the fields of aerospace and weaponry recently due to its ultra-high energy density (700-1000Wh/kg), ultra-long wet shelf life (more than 10 years, annual self-discharge rate less than 2%), free ground and on-orbit maintenance, wider storage and working temperature. This paper focuses on the working characteristics, application research and prospect of lithium carbon fluoride primary battery in the aerospace field, and provides a solution for different aerospace energy needs." Link


(https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/9971404)Cut above is NOT the news I read. I had thought 2025 solid state date was D day for current battery tech via Quatumscape. Now I think it may be 2023. Pausing flipping my current quirky short range MG xs. Partly as new charging option in Camberdown and another about to open in Geelong which will make 2 * 80% fast charging at 30/40min stops a lot faster than the 1* 100% one hour fast charge and 1 hour for very little power at colac or Warmblooded I have been doing for the last 40,000 km. Western Districts of Vic is slowly catching up at last. Noting IF the 1000wh/kg option is here late 2023 almost no one needs a lot of recharging options!

Have to chuckle if it is true as another brands billions on a new battery tech which was shouted about in 2022 would be almost as redundant? Tweeter loses my seem tame?

[Homestar]

Haven’t heard of anyone talking about 1000w/h per kg but there is an article
on 700w/h per kg from 3 or so weeks ago - Chinese Researchers Announce 711 Wh/kg Lithium Battery - CleanTechnica (https://cleantechnica.com/2023/04/25/chinese-researchers-announce-711-kwh-kg-lithium-battery/amp/)

[scarry]

Haven’t heard of anyone talking about 1000w/h per kg
[/url]

Commercial charger only,just imagine the current it would draw for a "quick charge"[bigsmile1]

[Narangga]

Most EV batteries have a specific energy of under 300Wh/kg.
CATL says its new battery almost doubles that figure, with a specific energy of 500Wh/kg

End 2023? Hope so. Details are a bit thin! Is is not that much better than the Model Y battery. I assume it is not a Solid State battery!


CATL unveils battery that may power electric airplanes and 1000km-range EVs - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2023-05-03/catl-announces-battery-to-make-electric-aviation-possible/102289310?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web)


Mia Culpa[bawl] While watching a football game (1/2time) I read about CATL 1000wh/kg battery tech. Now I cannot find it.

Why is that number significant? The car I was going to change to in July MG4 is 200ishwh/kg and goes 550km. The company making the MG batteries is a joint venture with the company that suggests it will be shipping 1000wh/kg batteries this year. The MG4 with the same weight of 1000wh/kg batteries may have a 2500km range.

IF this is true the price of a car I buy in July would decline by a significant amount by December!

"In recent years, with the rapid development of aerospace technology, there is a higher demand for energy. High-performance electrical energy systems can increase payload, reduce launch costs and improve on-orbit reliability. At the same time, with the change of application scenarios, the diversity of energy has also been tested. Lithium carbon fluoride primary battery (Li-CF x ) has gradually emerged in the fields of aerospace and weaponry recently due to its ultra-high energy density (700-1000Wh/kg), ultra-long wet shelf life (more than 10 years, annual self-discharge rate less than 2%), free ground and on-orbit maintenance, wider storage and working temperature. This paper focuses on the working characteristics, application research and prospect of lithium carbon fluoride primary battery in the aerospace field, and provides a solution for different aerospace energy needs." Link


(https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/9971404)Cut above is NOT the news I read. I had thought 2025 solid state date was D day for current battery tech via Quatumscape. Now I think it may be 2023. Pausing flipping my current quirky short range MG xs. Partly as new charging option in Camberdown and another about to open in Geelong which will make 2 * 80% fast charging at 30/40min stops a lot faster than the 1* 100% one hour fast charge and 1 hour for very little power at colac or Warmblooded I have been doing for the last 40,000 km. Western Districts of Vic is slowly catching up at last. Noting IF the 1000wh/kg option is here late 2023 almost no one needs a lot of recharging options!

Have to chuckle if it is true as another brands billions on a new battery tech which was shouted about in 2022 would be almost as redundant? Tweeter loses my seem tame?

Was it a different article to what you had already posted about?

Most articles I can find say pretty much only what is in that article.

[NavyDiver]

Haven’t heard of anyone talking about 1000w/h per kg but there is an article
on 700w/h per kg from 3 or so weeks ago - Chinese Researchers Announce 711 Wh/kg Lithium Battery - CleanTechnica (https://cleantechnica.com/2023/04/25/chinese-researchers-announce-711-kwh-kg-lithium-battery/amp/)

sorry for my waffle. I found the article which I clearly miss read. it is a 500wt/kg catl

Like this one but it stated by end of 2023.

"CATL launches 500 Wh/kg condensed matter batteryChinese battery industry heavyweight CATL has unveiled a novel condensed matter battery technology with an energy density of up to 500 Wh/kg. The company said it can achieve mass production within this year. Link (https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/04/21/catl-launches-500-wh-kg-condensed-matter-battery/)"

Catl and Saica motors have a Joint venter making the batteries that SAICA (MG) cars use. Tesla 4680-type cylindrical battery for Comparision are "energy density of the cell is estimated then at 272-296 Wh/kg, which is very good and basically comparable to the best cells on the market. (https://insideevs.com/news/598656/tesla-4680-battery-cell-specs/)"

It is about 100% better than TESLA 4680- type!
"The 4680-type cell already stores over 5-times more energy than the physically smaller 2170-type cell.Considering the rumored total energy content, the energy density would be:


1st gen: 276 Wh/kg
2nd gen: 305 Wh/kg
3rd gen: 333 Wh/kg

"
Extrapolate that to the CALT jump and we get a bit of a butt kicker.


I looked at Battery Comparison of Energy Density - Cylindrical and Prismatic Cells (https://www.epectec.com/batteries/cell-comparison.html)

I am not an expert in this just very interested. It is tough comparing apples to apples. My older MG 42kWh battery compared to todays 51 61 or 74 kwh battery does not state its Wh/kg.

My bet is it is in my case less than the Tesla 276Wh/kg? The new Model 4 is not new else where- We a just SLOW. The newer 51 or 64 kWh and charges at 3 times the rate of mine. That is as significant as the size. The power to weight of the new "about to be shipped" may still double the range at least. Not times 5 as I first thought- My error!

It is a big jump just not as big as I some how thought.

[Homestar]

Commercial charger only,just imagine the current it would draw for a "quick charge"[bigsmile1]

Was talking about the energy density of the batteries themselves - well I assume that’s what ND was on about. [emoji56]

[NavyDiver]

Was talking about the energy density of the batteries themselves - well I assume that’s what ND was on about. [emoji56]

I am never sure of what I am talking about [thumbsupbig]

Found from the horses mouth so to speak
CATL launches condensed battery with an energy density of up to 500 Wh/kg, enables electrification of passenger aircrafts (https://www.catl.com/en/news/6015.html)

Cut from the middle- It may tick a LOT of boxes perhaps? Cost is only missing bit!

"What is more, condensed battery integrates a range of innovative technologies, including the ultra-high energy density cathode materials, innovative anode materials, separators, and manufacturing processes, offering excellent charge and discharge performance as well as good safety performance.



The launch of this cutting-edge technology breaks the limits that have long restricted the development of the battery sector and will open up a new scenario of electrification centering on high level of safety and light weight. At present, CATL is cooperating with partners in the development of electric passenger aircrafts and practicing aviation-level standards and testing in accordance with aviation-grade safety and quality requirements. In addition, we will also launch the automotive-grade version of condensed batteries, which are expected to be put into mass production within this year.

"

Unfortunately I did not see a reference to SAIC Motor (MG)
"In 2022, CATL unveiled Qilin battery with the highest integration efficiency in the world, and it has started mass production this March. They have been used on multiple high-end BEVs such as ZEEKR, AITO and Li Auto. "

That OILIN battery at 255Wh/kg gives a better idea of the change to the new 500Wh/kg

" Zeekr 009 model (in Q2 2023), which will be the first model, equipped with the Qilin battery. The Qilin battery (English "Kirin") is considered a noticeable upgrade, compared to the already successful CATL's battery systems. As we described before, it's essentially the third generation of CATL's cell-to-pack (CTP) battery system (https://insideevs.com/news/606877/zeekr-first-brand-catl-qilin-batteries/), which might consist of prismatic lithium-ion cells (LFP or NCM chemistry) to achieve much higher energy density - up to 255 Wh/kg (pack level), in the case of NCM version.

That's enough to target a range of 622 miles (1,000 km) under the optimistic CLTC test cycle (probably at least 20 percent less in the WLTP/EPA test cycles).

"

My assumption only is the new 500Wh/kg could make the example car 'Zeekr 009 model' go from 'target a range of 622 miles (1,000 km) under the optimistic CLTC test cycle (probably at least 20 percent less in the WLTP/EPA test cycles).' to a lot more. I would say 2000km due to the test mentioned being rather questionable?

The Zeekr is not likley to get here. It may have a twin that does come here a "Volvo EX30" None of which would tow my boat[bighmmm]

[Narangga]

Mostly through Singapore, however that is not always direct. The next vessel is due 22 May having departed Fremantle 17 May having come direct from Japan. Most likely has vehicles from other countries that were shipped via Singapore to Freo by other vessels.

Due to volumes here there is minimal delay once the vessel is in port.


Where do cars for the NT come through? Do the boats go there or Adelaide?

The ports in Aus are nuts at the moment.

My car sat bobbing off the sunshine coast for 2.5 weeks before the boat could even dock. I gather Port Kembla is far worse.

Further investigations have proved that information is incorrect. One vessel in Darwin went from Japan to Freo to Darwin. The next vessel is Korea to Freo to Darwin next week. Singapore must be old news.

[NavyDiver]

Ford’s next-generation electric vehicle architecture will land in 2025, with the first vehicle to be a three-row sport utility vehicle with 350 miles of range that’s inspired by the automaker’s popular Expedition SUV.
The announcement came during Ford’s capital markets day Monday, which also included a flurry of batty material news. The company outlined new supply deals for battery-grade lithium to produce 2 million electric vehicles by 2026. But mainly, the capital markets event was intended to show how Ford can close the gap with its competitors, namely Tesla, which still dominates the EV market in the US.
Ford’s first next-gen EV will be a three-row sport utility vehicle with 350 miles of range."

Only bit about this news is I suspect by 2025 range may be a lot more than 350 miles[bigwhistle]

[scarry]

Only bit about this news is I suspect by 2025 range may be a lot more than 350 miles[bigwhistle][/FONT][/COLOR]

It would want to be a lot better.
A loaded work ute will probably do,maybe,possibly,200 miles,without towing a loaded trailer?More than likely less.

Then take off 50 for margin,well no one wants to run out of power,so that leaves 150 miles,probably pretty useless for the average Tradie.

Then after 5yrs and a bit of battery degradation it will be worse.😩

They certainly need to come a long way before they will be convenient for some.

[Tombie]

Typo Scarry? For *most* [emoji41][emoji851][emoji56]

[spudfan]

Here are two articles that do not paint EV's in a positive light. Whether there is an agenda here or not I do not know but there are some salient points.
EVs Are The Yugo Of The 21st Century – Issues & Insights (https://issuesinsights.com/2023/03/28/evs-are-the-yugo-of-the-21st-century/?fbclid=IwAR1qiBzb2L1GubJiv8DFe_sq0tRrS8XmSx0OQ1mr KXwsn1inY9i1pA7ID-Q)
It’s Time To Admit It: EVs Are EVIL – Issues & Insights (https://issuesinsights.com/2023/03/02/its-time-to-admit-it-evs-are-evil/?fbclid=IwAR06n_yeeFJyMtGSa65urOEC-ZClTwPoACLVdhnlCTC-OrXiRcSk2DPJTZY)

[DoubleChevron]

Here are two articles that do not paint EV's in a positive light. Whether there is an agenda here or not I do not know but there are some salient points.
EVs Are The Yugo Of The 21st Century – Issues & Insights (https://issuesinsights.com/2023/03/28/evs-are-the-yugo-of-the-21st-century/?fbclid=IwAR1qiBzb2L1GubJiv8DFe_sq0tRrS8XmSx0OQ1mr KXwsn1inY9i1pA7ID-Q)
It’s Time To Admit It: EVs Are EVIL – Issues & Insights (https://issuesinsights.com/2023/03/02/its-time-to-admit-it-evs-are-evil/?fbclid=IwAR06n_yeeFJyMtGSa65urOEC-ZClTwPoACLVdhnlCTC-OrXiRcSk2DPJTZY)

I'm not concerned, I ignore the people that rant and rave everything will be electric soon ( gee's the media sucks arse the way it pushes this agenda). The reality is in australia will probably end up with a decent percentage of electric cars within the next couple of decades). I wonder if they will ever reach 50% of cars on the roads? ( I doubt it, not unless a new battery technology arrives).

These article seem accurate, then again so do a lot of the pro-electric car articles. Its all how you wish to read the data. electric would be great if you had a compact population, where distances aren't vast, and you wish the pollution to be created elsewhere, not at the immediate location. So if you have big cities with huge populations ... what isn't to like? They would have the infrastructure to charge them (then again public transport would also be great under similar conditions).

In a big country like australia they make no sense at all, unless maybe you lived in the middle of a capital city. They are also target at the wrong market, a lot of the cars available are basically supercars. Not the average car an average person could afford.

EXCLUSIVE DRIVE: Citroen OLI : has Citroen lost LE PLOT? / Electrifying - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAdlm8-h_GE)

I have no interest or intension of ever owning an electric car .... but this appeals. I dont' recommend watching that youtube video ... .'cos you will want one. I do .... And electric doesn't interest me at all!

[NavyDiver]

EVs have issues as do most things taken from certain angles. Quick post in the Computer shop today reminded me how stuff changes SOO quickly. My 10/100 ish Network hub is now a Gigabit Ethernet 10 times as fast and fat channels and cost me in $$ just 1/10 of old the fried heavy beast!

We change a bit as well of course[bigwhistle]

[vnx205]

... .... ..

In a big country like australia they make no sense at all, unless maybe you lived in the middle of a capital city.
.... ....


86% of Australia's population lives in urban areas.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN.ZS?locations=AU

[grey_ghost]

86% of Australia's population lives in urban areas.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN.ZS?locations=AU

So the government doesn’t care about the other 14% ?

The cult of the EV…

[DoubleChevron]

86% of Australia's population lives in urban areas.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN.ZS?locations=AU


Yes, but you are missing the next most important problem that makes this whole electric car caper a complete farce.

185571

They are not what the majority of people want (or need). Here is the top selling cars in australia 2022.

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Mostly they are pretend 4wds, 4wds and twin cab utes. Now ..... Show me all the electric 4wd and twin cab utes ..... They don't actually exist. If you look at the seppo electric "trucks" (aka: twin cab utes) .... The things are utterly useless for there designed use due to severe range limitations when towing/carrying loads .... and high recharge times.

[Homestar]

86% of Australia's population lives in urban areas.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN.ZS?locations=AU

And 86% of those don't want an EV... [bigwhistle]

Same story it was 3 years ago which OEM's haven't been able to solve - range, recharging time and cost. And I don't want to hear 'You can get 80% charge in 20 minutes from a super charger' - this ends up ****ing the battery long term and there's **** all of them around. 'battery costs are coming down' - complete BS - Battery prices have risen 20% in the last 12 months.

And even if you are for EV's for all the right reasons, if we replaced EVERY car, 4WD and truck on Australian roads tomorrow with EV's - that would only cut emissions by 8% - assuming ALL the power to charge them was 100% renewable. The big push for EV's is to divert the attention away from the BIG polluters - who pay the Gubment to maintain focus elsewhere.

Soooo -

I'm sure I'll be thought of again as an EV hater for posting this - which isn't true as I love EV tech and think they have a place and fit into some peoples lifestyle very well, but why is there such a huge push to hoodwink everyone into guilt buying them to save the planet when we'll get so little bang for buck doing this???

[Tombie]

86% of Australia's population lives in urban areas.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN.ZS?locations=AU

My family live in urban areas…. You couldn’t drive an EV from one Aunties house to the other and return in a basic EV without a charge - and that’s all Urban around the same city.

So what’s your point? Logic would suggest Mopeds, Bicycles and walking would be more effective.

[DoubleChevron]

My family live in urban areas…. You couldn’t drive an EV from one Aunties house to the other and return in a basic EV without a charge - and that’s all Urban around the same city.

So what’s your point? Logic would suggest Mopeds, Bicycles and walking would be more effective.

Don't they have a 3->500km range these days. I don't see that as an issue. So long as you have the time to recharge overnight ... I have phones, computers... tools with lithium batteries. You get 5 years if your lucky. Anyone for a worthless 5year old car because it needs a battery pack that is probably multiples of its market value (as its market value will be tiny as it needs a battery pack).

I'm not anti-electric car .... I'm just anti-stupidity. Anything that can't be driven for at least 15years without major repair is just nuts. 15years sounds like a long time, but that's only a 2008 model car. I don't even own a car that is that young.

[Tombie]

Don't they have a 3->500km range these days. I don't see that as an issue. So long as you have the time to recharge overnight ...

Supposedly… unless it’s hot/cold/windy etc

A 470km range Tesla cannot get 320km a lot of the time.

[ATH]

A rellie of mine lives in wonderland (Switzerland) and his Lexus Hybrid started losing power and took longer to charge up after about 6 years, from my fading memory. Then at 7 years he was told he'd need a new battery pack soon. Got quoted $US8K which frightened the pants off him as he hates spending any of his loads of money which he counts in his sleep.... :)
He reckoned the vehicle was faultless apart from that and much better than the 'His and Hers' Rangies him and his dearly beloved drove before retirement.
So they went back to a diesel Landie.... a Disco Sport and they're quite happy with that.
AlanH.

[Tote]

I am in the situation where I could theoretically use an electric vehicle for my daily commute in and out of Canberra. I currently drive a supercharged RRS to do those duties but there would need to be some serious compromises:

I don't want to drive a corolla sized vehicle - this limits my choice somewhat and negates most of the concessions such as FBT exemptions that only apply to vehicles below the LCT limit. (and to people who live in Balmain)
I don't mind Volvos so a polestar might be a contender, the Polestar 3 has a 600KM range but isn't available until maybe 2nd quarter 2024 and is listed at 145,000 to order now. Following the rule of thumb of don't charge over 80% and don't discharge below 20% from the Tesla owners that I work with that leaves you a range of 360KM, I still have range anxiety...
Using it every day means charging it every night, so I would need to look at a solar battery for $20K so I don't have to use mains to charge it. Alternately that charging comes out of my already exorbitant electricity costs because we are on a "regional" tariff.
There is a significant risk that the current road use charges that EV's are not charged would get added to the running costs as well.

Unlike the Rangie I cannot tow a car trailer
Unlike the Rangie I cannot buy a second hand EV and expect a reasonable lifespan from it
Unlike the Rangie I cannot do a day trip to Sydney without significant planning and waiting around for the car to recharge

We're not there yet from my point of view.

Regards,
Tote

[DoubleChevron]

This is bizarre, I usually make just one single post on electric car threads.... And absolute nutters usually come out of the woodwork to scream and rave at me like absolute crazies. Do we only have normal sensible people on here? Where is all the loopy greenies?

[windsock]

Where is all the loopy greenies?

Waiting for a full charge? :whistling:

[Homestar]

I'm not anti-electric car .... I'm just anti-stupidity. Anything that can't be driven for at least 15years without major repair is just nuts. 15years sounds like a long time, but that's only a 2008 model car. I don't even own a car that is that young.

Yep, you only need to look at the thread I have about a replacement for my Daughters 97 Camry - it will probably be around 2005 to 2008 model of something - which is more than she can afford and I’ll be chipping in a bit to make it happen. She works full time but doesn’t have a spare cent these days and they want to try and get 10 year plus cars off the road and have everyone in shiny new EV’s? They’re dreamin’

[Saitch]

.............................. and they want to try and get 10 year plus cars off the road and have everyone in shiny new EV’s? They’re dreamin’

Modern governance!

185577

[prelude]

I hope oz keeps it sanity in some way for quite some time to come, here is hoping...

As I just posted in another thread I finally got to see a list price including taxes for the absolute base model grenadier and in this completely mad tree hugging hippy part of europe that car would ens up costing 280K AUD. That's right, the price difference is CO2 tax. By that same token a range rover costs twice as much to buy as well. I do not foresee ANY grenadiers to be sold in this country whatsoever except for a happy few. Also, the tax deduction on tradie vans is going to be cancelled in 2025 so can you imagine having to buy a ute or van or anything at that price?! This country has lost it's marbles in a big way.

Now, we are basically one big urban area/city here, certainly for down under standards but even here EV's don't really work and don't get me started on public transport, it doesn't work either. The funny thing is where the EV WOULD shine, is on the cusp of where public transport fails. That's a small range of operation but hear me out:

When you live in outside of the city centre of one of our bigger cities and you have a job to commute to in an adjacent city, also on the outskirts, public transport is woefully inadequate since you need to hop from bus to tram to train and whatever. I have discussed this with a mate of mine and he has timed it at 1 hour and 15 minutes. This includes all the discomfort of public transport and walking time. That same trip, through morning traffic with a car takes him about 20 minutes. Still twice as long as on a sunday morning but that's congestion ;) A trip like that can easily be made with a smaller EV like the honda E for example without the need to charge at the office, even in winter or summer. Once back home it has a whole night to recharge slowly. This also means you put a smaller and less heavy car on the road that does not eat up the bitumen and there is less waste overall. The problems are clear of course, that car would not be useful for pretty much anything else.

And for the fans, there is no way to solve that public transport conundrum either. In my puny little country it is probably better organized than most countries and it still sucks. It is never going to be the answer and neither are cycling lanes but :) we digress.

I agree with doublechevron, although I am certainly not a fan of the double chevron brand :) that this is not EV bashing, it's stupidity bashing.

Cheers,
-P

[Homestar]

Something we all knew but no one was wanting to talk about - EV batteries pose big risks — and new figures reveal how much hazardous waste they could create - ABC News (https://amp.abc.net.au/article/102417114)

[DoubleChevron]

Something we all knew but no one was wanting to talk about - EV batteries pose big risks — and new figures reveal how much hazardous waste they could create - ABC News (https://amp.abc.net.au/article/102417114)

If I owned an electric car, it would also be parked in its own structure. In the event of a battery fire ... (I know, the equivalent of winning tattslotto). I don't want the damn thing torching my house... The boss women and kids could be asleep inside that :o ) Same deal with a house battery. I don't want that thing attached to the house.

Hurricane Ian flood damage to EVs creating ticking time bombs in Florida - ABC News (https://abcnews.go.com/US/hurricane-ian-flood-damage-evs-creating-ticking-time/story?id=91795016)

We are having lots of areas flooding. Imagine if we had house batteries being flooded.... weeks down the track after everything has dried out the damn things will be going up and torching entire neighborhoods (they can't be put out remember .... a battery fire would be an absolutely terrifying event to witness -- that is if you survived it).

We are getting close, but we just aren't really there yet IMO.

[goingbush]

Well Ive daily driven my EV Landy for over 5 years now . ( Local trips only) And love it .
Though the 2-1/4 is/was probably the worlds most dependable engine , swapping it for Electric was one of the best things Ive ever done.

For longer trips obviously I don't have the range and have 4 other ICE vehicle to chose from, that rarely get driven.

For multi vehicle households one EV for local trips is a sensible idea, Don't need a battery capable of 500km, why cart around 500kg of battery and pay a premium when you hardly ever need it.

ALL those anti EV propaganda articles are paid for by big oil / Koch brothers etc . People can believe what they want, theres aways extremism on both sides on an argument, don't listen, don't care, it dosent bother me at all. Just do what's right for you.

[DoubleChevron]

Well Ive daily driven my EV Landy for over 5 years now . ( Local trips only) And love it .
Though the 2-1/4 is/was probably the worlds most dependable engine , swapping it for Electric was one of the best things Ive ever done.

For longer trips obviously I don't have the range and have 4 other ICE vehicle to chose from, that rarely get driven.

For multi vehicle households one EV for local trips is a sensible idea, Don't need a battery capable of 500km, why cart around 500kg of battery and pay a premium when you hardly ever need it.

ALL those anti EV propaganda articles are paid for by big oil / Koch brothers etc . People can believe what they want, theres aways extremism on both sides on an argument, don't listen, don't care, it dosent bother me at all. Just do what's right for you.

If you read the messages. Nothing said here is anti-electric car. If you have one that works for you ... Go for it! I reckon an old Citroen DS for example would be brilliant as an electric car (it has a dated wheezy 4cylinder motor that is crude and noisy ... that also spins backwards and has inboard gearbox mounted brakes). So to repower this would be very difficult.... excpet for electric. And electric motor will not care which way it spins, and it can bolt upto the existing gearbox :arms: You would end up with the what is probably the smoothest, quietest most comfortable car ever made.